GOP Grassroots Likes "FairTax" The Washington Times reports that after Rep. Steve King "endorsed a national retail sales tax to replace the federal income tax during his first run for Congress, his own campaign coordinator told him his candidacy was finished." Now, "three elections later, the Iowa Republican still stands in the vanguard of the FairTax, a tax revolution that has taken hold of the 2008 Republican presidential debate and turned from outcast to kingmaker." Of the major candidates "on the Republican side six, including all-but-announced candidate Fred Thompson, have said they are either active supporters or would at least be willing to sign a FairTax bill if it reached their desks as president."

What is going on? Since when do Repulicans allow the federal government to trample states' rights?

I don't want a national sales tax, nor a national car registration, nor a national personal registration. That's for the states to do. WTF. :cussing:

Do you have any idea what the 'fair tax' is? Are you aware that it would eliminate federal income tax (both business and personal) and would eliminate the IRS.

I am a huge supporter.

Are you also aware that it would be something in the order of 22%, that is way to much, I certainly would buy less if I knew I also had to pay an extra 22% on top, can you say economic depression.

Read the Fair Tax book written by Neal Boortz and while your at it his other book Somebody's Gotta Say It is good also. Don't worry about the Fair Tax becoming a reality, it makes way to much sense. The power hunger politicians will never give up the power to control the people with the current IRS code. Like I said, read the book.

And all of these big companies and extremely rich folks would pay less. This would increase the burden on the people in the lower to middle income areas.

I am by no means an economist but I see the problems we face as a huge tax code with too many loopholes for those who can afford them, both corporate and individual.

When your CEOs are making more money in a single day than your workers do all year, there is a problem.

Too many lazy people who either don't work or barely work. Yet all the rest of us support them in one fashion or another.


Luke

I'm against any national tax- period. And yes, that includes income.

If it goes to solely a sales tax, it becomes very regressive, i.e. no exemptions for the poor; raising a family, etc.

Are you also aware that it would be something in the order of 22%, that is way to much, I certainly would buy less if I knew I also had to pay an extra 22% on top, can you say economic depression.

You're taxed more than 22% now. So you would actually be saving money !
Why are people so naive on tax issues? I'm all for this tax, let them tax me 22% of everything I buy and let me keep 99% of my income, sweet. It would certainly benefit the middle class for once !

Florida is voting on elimitating property tax all together and raising sales tax to 8%-9%. That's a lot of money in savings and would allow more people to buy homes.

Rinaldo

I'm against any national tax- period. And yes, that includes income.

If it goes to solely a sales tax, it becomes very regressive, i.e. no exemptions for the poor; raising a family, etc.

The poor would be a lot better off under The Fair Tax as proposed by Boortz in his book. Also the illegals, drug dealers, tourist from other countries, and the wealthy who pay no income tax at all because of the loopholes and codes of our current system would all be in the system. I could debate this all day long, but I don't have time. Read the book, and then if you don't agree that it makes sense, we can agree to disagree.

In reality the end consumers pay (pretty much) ALL the tax anyways, and it is a damn site more than 22%.

What do you think happens to corporate taxes now? Do you think the corporations absorb them and write them off? Think about it - they add it to the cost of the goods sold, so we as consumers are the ones paying that tax.
(Reminds me of the tax Shillary just added to the big oil companies - :crazy: - yea boy, she'll show them:rofl: making all those big profits, just what were they thinking)

Same thing with payroll taxes - we live off of our net earnings not gross. So employers have to pay more so that the gov't can get a cut of that higher salary and the employee takes home enough that he is satisfied enough with that take-home pay to keep returning to work. That extra salary for the government's cut must also be included in the final price of the consumer good.


If this extra cost didn't have to be included the original 'pre-sales tax' price would then come down to reflect these savings, so the final 'after sales tax' cost could actually be less than you are paying now.

Like the man says read the Neal Boortz book. (I know I plan to - love that guy)

And all of these big companies and extremely rich folks would pay less. Actually the big companies wouldn't pay any - except on the goods they purchased for end use. And the rich folks - they have so many loop holes now; and most of the truly rich make their money from capital gains anyways - which is taxed at a much lower rate than income tax - many would actually end up paying more (Rich people are usually pretty big consumers).

I know it won't happen in our lifetime, but it is a very good and 'fair' system.

Debates about it being good aside- I'm not for any new tax. But, my issue is that of state's rights- taking away sales tax from individual states and making it a federal issue.

How do you guys like those 'temporary' toll booths down there?

Debates about it being good aside- I'm not for any new tax. But, my issue is that of state's rights- taking away sales tax from individual states and making it a federal issue.

How do you guys like those 'temporary' toll booths down there?

It would replace our current federal system and would not take anything away from the states. Read the book. :cussing:

Heh, you first talked about the book a few hours ago- I havent' had time to run to the bookstore.

So how would states (such as Florida) get their own income? By adding a sales tax on top of some ridiculously high sales tax? I don't think so. Wait.. that sounds like socialist europe! A VAT for everything.

Some of my ridiculously rich friends get hit by the AMT and I almost laugh about it- not sure that's a bad thing.

they wouldn't add a sales tax - they already have one.:bounce::bounce::D

So, this federal tax at 22% plus Florida's new 8% sales tax ... a 30% sales tax?

Hello underground economy!

At first glance I would shit a brick if someone told me that there would be a sales tax of 30% percent. The 22% federal tax would replace the embedded tax on goods. You do understand that every thing that you buy has and embedded tax that we all pay. When the producers of goods have all the taxes that they pay know taken away there prices would fall at least 22%. So you would be paying the same for those goods! It really is not that complicated.

So, this federal tax at 22% plus Florida's new 8% sales tax ... a 30% sales tax?

Hello underground economy!

Even at 30% unless you are spending more then your entire salary every year you would still not be taxed as high as the now. You do understand that there would be 0% on income taxes right?

The problem is this..The mfrs, producers of whatever... widgets WOULDNT lower their prices and would keep on raping the consumer laughing all the way to the bank with their new windfalls..like the oil companies have done.. It wasnt that long ago guys you could still buy gas for a buck......
I remember when Diesel fuel was half the price of gas until the "first" oil shortage in the 70's..shit now it's MORE and cost's SIGNIFICANTLY less to produce!
I wasnt suprised at all with the profits the barons made...bastards
I'm not against the newfangled taxes as long as they reflect REAL economic advantages and the suppliers adjust pricing accordingly.

At first glance I would shit a brick if someone told me that there would be a sales tax of 30% percent. The 22% federal tax would replace the embedded tax on goods. You do understand that every thing that you buy has and embedded tax that we all pay. When the producers of goods have all the taxes that they pay know taken away there prices would fall at least 22%. So you would be paying the same for those goods! It really is not that complicated.

You are assuming that the producer would pass that savings on to the consumer. I can't think of any example were saving producers money was passed directly onto the consumer. Maybe there is one but I doubt that it would occur in this case.

The problem is this..The mfrs, producers of whatever... widgets WOULDNT lower their prices and would keep on raping the consumer laughing all the way to the bank with their new windfalls..like the oil companies have done.. It wasnt that long ago guys you could still buy gas for a buck......
I remember when Diesel fuel was half the price of gas until the "first" oil shortage in the 70's..shit now it's MORE and cost's SIGNIFICANTLY less to produce!
I wasnt suprised at all with the profits the barons made...bastards
I'm not against the newfangled taxes as long as they reflect REAL economic advantages and the suppliers adjust pricing accordingly.

Can't say as I can understand how diesel is more expensive than gas. I think it has to do with refining capacities and how no new refineries have been built in the last 30 yrs due to enviro wackos and their overextending influence on the government- but really don't know enough to say with any authority. Actually I think it may have more to do with my first purchase of a diesel truck just about the time diesel became more expensive than regular gas (sorry to all those driving diesel - I feel somewhat responsible)

Fact is - if capitalism is allowed to function prices would have to fall, simple supply and demand economics.

You do know the government, which does not add any value to the product of gasoline or diesel, receives almost seven times more profit from the product than the "barons". Yet they do not have to import the crude, refine the crude into various products, and then safely deliver those products to the stations where we can conveniently pump those products into our greenhouse gas producing vehicles of which only John Edwards and Algore are really the only one's worthy of utilizing.

Seven times the profit and all they have to do is pull out their big guns:gun:

BTW as mentioned earlier Shillary punished "The Barons" by imposing yet more tax - WTF do you think will pay that tax (I can assure you it is not "the Barons") Shouldn't political candidates be required to take at a minimum a basic economic course (hopefully not taught by Billy Mac;) )

I realize this tax is supposed to construct, maintain and improve our road systems - I also realize that most of this money, like nearly ALL gov't programs is getting diverted from where it is supposed to go -(I seem to recall a recent bridge collapse) Like everything this way too big government is put in charge of - it is doomed to failure followed by excuses - "Blame Bush!!!"

sorry for the somewhat derail

You're taxed more than 22% now. So you would actually be saving money !
Why are people so naive on tax issues? I'm all for this tax, let them tax me 22% of everything I buy and let me keep 99% of my income, sweet. It would certainly benefit the middle class for once !

Florida is voting on elimitating property tax all together and raising sales tax to 8%-9%. That's a lot of money in savings and would allow more people to buy homes.

Rinaldo

It also kills the poorer classes much more than any other class. If you raise the tax on anything bought, that includes essentials of living like food. Poorer people, as a steadfast rule, spend a greater percentage of their income on the basics than other people do so a libertarian style 25% sales tax hits them way harder than the current system. It also hurts American businesses doing business here because the people with the disposable incomes will naturally start buying abroad to offset the 30% costs unless we also create a flat tariff of the same as the sales tax for any good that enters the country. And we all know how fast imports would dry up with a 25% flat tariff.

Fact is - if capitalism is allowed to function prices would have to fall, simple supply and demand economics.

Not in the case of gas. Gas is an essential good that we have to purchase by force of necessity and not because we feel like it. Thus, there is basically a fixed demand and producers can supply at whatever price and quantity that they like and still get the same sales because demand is fixed.

Supply and demand as a market theory only works when both supply and demand are free-floating and the goods basket in question has no substitutes. Thus, it really only applies to non-essential goods and services, the things we spend disposable income on like spearguns and movies.

Fair tax is a great idea!

Everyone pays the same rate.

No exemption for the rich.

No business tax (We all pay the business tax reflected in the cost of goods or services)

No IRS, NO filing taxes, none of the waste associated with tax collection.

This is a consumption tax not an income tax. It does not tax your savings What you put away for retirement is not taxed until you spend it. Some models dont tax necessities such as food.


Read Neal Borks book it is worth you time

Not in the case of gas. Gas is an essential good that we have to purchase by force of necessity and not because we feel like it. Thus, there is basically a fixed demand and producers can supply at whatever price and quantity that they like and still get the same sales because demand is fixed.

Supply and demand as a market theory only works when both supply and demand are free-floating and the goods basket in question has no substitutes. Thus, it really only applies to non-essential goods and services, the things we spend disposable income on like spearguns and movies.

So there is only one company that is supplying gasoline and diesel? There is no competition? Crap I hope it's not Citco, I would hate to be unknowingly supporing Chavez (sp?)

Really read the book and THEN come back and say you dont support the fair tax. But you have to reall yread it. And you have to be crazy not to support it once you understand it.

Why does he use the term fair tax rather than consumption tax or national sales tax. I have heard him discuss it on the radio a little but as with any tax it is far from fair for some people.

Why does he use the term fair tax rather than consumption tax or national sales tax. I have heard him discuss it on the radio a little but as with any tax it is far from fair for some people.

You are absolutely correct - it is not fair for those not paying their fair share under the current system.:mad:

So there is only one company that is supplying gasoline and diesel? There is no competition? Crap I hope it's not Citco, I would hate to be unknowingly supporing Chavez (sp?)

Notice the "producers" in my earlier statement. Even with multiple producers, if all of them are turning a profit and can all ratchet up prices at an even rate with each other to make even more money, what incentive does one company have to drop the price? They may take a slightly bigger portion of the market share, depending on their distribution ability, but why? If we assume that all the companies have roughly equal distro capacity then dropping their price won't really have any greater benefit as they can only get so much gas out there at a time. They only have so many stations that buy their gas and each station only has so big of a storage tank.

They would only hurt their long run profits by lowering prices because demand isn't going to fall without another comparable substitute to actually compete with gasoline.

To illustrate this: here is a poorly drawn diagram by me.
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m96/mnguy004/SnD.gif
On the one on the left, supply and demand are free floating, and where they intersect is the equilibrium price, the price at which companies turn the best profit and move the proper amount of items minimizing waste.

On the one on the right, we have a situation where demand is fixed at one position. This is like gas. No matter what we demand so much gas D. This means that producers can supply any amount that they want to get the price that they want for it. In this case, S1 shifting to S2 indicates a drop in supply, and therefore they get more money for the same product.

Though really, S should be a horizontal bar since supply is pretty much fixed as well. In that scenario, S1 would shift vertically to S2, illustrating that at some fixed demand D, suppliers can shift the price of their fixed supply S to command whatever price they want.

I too have studied economics - so we don't have (forgive the elementary term - I am once again 'self medicating' - I just can't remember the correct term) price fixing laws?

These would make your models illegal - would they not?

You are absolutely correct - it is not fair for those not paying their fair share under the current system.:mad:

I know quite a few people who are richer than I am not paying there fair share and I would go so far as to say they never will.

I know quite a few people who are richer than I am not paying there fair share and I would go so far as to say they never will.

Not even under the 'fair tax' law - how would they avoid it? By not buying anything? - then how would they benefit from having so much money??

I too have studied economics - so we don't have (forgive the elementary term - I am once again 'self medicating' - I just can't remember the correct term) price fixing laws?

These would make your models illegal - would they not?

Technically, I guess you could say that there are anti-trust laws in place to stop the refining companies from negotiating with each other to set a price for their good, but only if they actually negotiate it amongst themselves. For example as a realtor, I cannot tell another realtor of a different brokerage that I charge x% for a listing. If I did, I would be guilty under the Sherman anti-trust act of attempting to fix prices. On the other hand if I were to say that the market demands at least 6% for a listing, 3% to each side, because of the amount of inventory then that would be perfectly fine.

In reality, though, what is to stop them from following the lead of one company in raising prices, or from just raising prices in general and watching everyone else follow suit? Just observing the rise in price of gas over the last few years and you can see that. It isn't like the cost of refining has gone up 200% in the last 8 years so why the 200% increase, at its peak, in price at the pump?

Also, the variance between the prices of gas between all the various companies isn't very much. You might get 10 cents less than the average at Arcoand maybe pay a 10 cents more than the average at Texaco. So, with regular unleaded at about 2.50 right now on the average, you're only seeing a range of about 4% in either direction. This has always held true, though the percentage difference would vary over the different prices. This, at least to me, signifies that they have figured out the whole move as one act a long time ago.

They probably figured this time around, for one reason or another, that it would be OK to shake down the comsumers for a few more bucks. They already know that demand is fixed and that the American consumer is apathetic and will always acclimate to the new prices, despite all the moaning and groaning, and that the government won't do a thing about it.

Of course, all the businesses that depend on the reciept and shipment of goods have felt the pinch from the increased cost of fuel and are passing it on to the consumer.

It also kills the poorer classes much more than any other class. If you raise the tax on anything bought, that includes essentials of living like food. Poorer people, as a steadfast rule, spend a greater percentage of their income on the basics than other people do so a libertarian style 25% sales tax hits them way harder than the current system.

One thing they would do is give a tax credit for everyone for the basic essientials of life such as food.

Do all you unbelievers really think that they didn't think of all of these obvious situations you are bringing up? I to sugest you read the book and ALL of your questions and more will be addressed.

You are absolutely correct - it is not fair for those not paying their fair share under the current system.:mad:

Who is not paying their fair share???? Is it fair for people who busted their asses all thier lives who make real good money to have to pay a very high rate of tax. Just because they make a large amount of money why do they get kicked in the balls. It appears that you must beleive in income redistribution. That is all that our current system is good for. I dont make a lot of money, but I sure as hell dont want someone to have to pay more tax THAN I DO JUST BECAUSE THEY MAKE MORE. THAT IS TOTAL BS. Everyone should pay the same rate regardless of income. The best way to accomplish that is a consumption tax or the Fair Tax. First you get your whole paycheck.....no deductions for any tax. Then you control how much you pay in tax by your purchases. Do you think the rich will pay more. Wont they be purchasing more items. It is really a no brainer....and it takes politics out of the mix. Everyone pays they same. Even the illegals who are working for cash will be taxed...there is no way to avoid being taxed. If you buy something you pay tax period. And that is about as fair as you can get.

READ THE BOOK. I am amazed by the lack of knowledge of some of the statements made here. Why would you want the government to basically give you someone else's hard earned money. That is the system we have. Lower income tax rate are just the governments way of giving you (and I use "you" generally") someone else's money. I dont want to have someone's hard earned money given to me. It is no better than a common theif stealing from you.

Who is not paying their fair share???? Is it fair for people who busted their asses all thier lives who make real good money to have to pay a very high rate of tax. Just because they make a large amount of money why do they get kicked in the balls. It appears that you must beleive in income redistribution. That is all that our current system is good for. I dont make a lot of money, but I sure as hell dont want someone to have to pay more tax THAN I DO JUST BECAUSE THEY MAKE MORE. THAT IS TOTAL BS. Everyone should pay the same rate regardless of income. The best way to accomplish that is a consumption tax or the Fair Tax. First you get your whole paycheck.....no deductions for any tax. Then you control how much you pay in tax by your purchases. Do you think the rich will pay more. Wont they be purchasing more items. It is really a no brainer....and it takes politics out of the mix. Everyone pays they same. Even the illegals who are working for cash will be taxed...there is no way to avoid being taxed. If you buy something you pay tax period. And that is about as fair as you can get.

READ THE BOOK. I am amazed by the lack of knowledge of some of the statements made here. Why would you want the government to basically give you someone else's hard earned money. That is the system we have. Lower income tax rate are just the governments way of giving you (and I use "you" generally") someone else's money. I dont want to have someone's hard earned money given to me. It is no better than a common theif stealing from you.


Whoa there big fella- you could not be more wrong about my stance on this subject. I am TOTALLY against gov't forced reditribution of wealth. I am TOTALLY for the fair tax plan. Go back and read my posts. :slap:

It'll never pass because unfortunately 90% or better of most Americans are one of the following.

1.Ignorant of basic math,English and economics.
2.So full of hate for anyone or entity who is more successful than them in some area they would cut their own throats just to get blood on the other guy.
3.So fearful of any change they would sit in a dirty diaper if it meant trying to actually make a decision.
4.So lazy and entitled they'd be to busy watching MTV or Survivor re-runs to actually read the book.

Not to mention most politicians are indeed not to likely to give the ability tax or reward the constituency which they most whore themselves out to.

Sad but true. Well said.

It'll never pass because unfortunately 90% or better of most Americans are one of the following.

1.Ignorant of basic math,English and economics.
2.So full of hate for anyone or entity who is more successful than them in some area they would cut their own throats just to get blood on the other guy.
3.So fearful of any change they would sit in a dirty diaper if it meant trying to actually make a decision.
4.So lazy and entitled they'd be to busy watching MTV or Survivor re-runs to actually read the book.

Not to mention most politicians are indeed not to likely to give the ability tax or reward the constituency which they most whore themselves out to.

The one area where I might believe hope exists,and hopefully get this thing moving,is the fact that I believe 90% of Americans are united in their hatred for the current tax system.Not to mention the IRS.

The current tax system was not meant to be equitable. It is a regressive tax system and has always been so. The whole idea behind this was that the wealthier citizens can afford to pay a larger share of thier income into the tax system than the working class and poor.

Another reason that it will unfortunately never pass is that a bunch of people will loose their jobs. Everyone that works for the IRS and all of the accountants and tax related jobs.

don't forget the lawyers

It also kills the poorer classes much more than any other class. If you raise the tax on anything bought, that includes essentials of living like food. Poorer people, as a steadfast rule, spend a greater percentage of their income on the basics than other people do so a libertarian style 25% sales tax hits them way harder than the current system.

A tax for food would only impact read-to-eat food because your basics are non-taxable unless they suddenly decide that a loaf of bread should have a 22% tax... It would put a chink in the Fast Food Industry but that's about it. Food tax could not be a problem unless you eat BK 7 nights a week....

But yes, I agree with part of that statement, I do believe that it would impact the poor just like everything else does. Most of them don't have the education or the lawyers to find back-doors around everything or the COPIOUS amounts of time to find new ways to screw the system.

I am saddened more and more every day that basic economic theory is so hard to understand.Imbedded tax,excise tax,taxes in the form of fees and liscense.Do you guys even have any idea what the actual tax burden you or anyone else pays.On anything.

The current tax system was not meant to be equitable. It is a regressive tax system and has always been so. The whole idea behind this was that the wealthier citizens can afford to pay a larger share of thier income into the tax system than the working class and poor.

I think you meant to say "progressive." A system in which the rate rises with income is progressive, and a system in which the rate rises as income falls is regressive.

While the current Federal income tax indeed progressive, state and local taxes are very regressive. Studies I've read that when you look at the entire tax system as a whole, the system is very close to proportional, with all income levels paying roughly the same percentage of income in total tax.

Here is something I found from my old lecture notes. Its a Word Document with a table, so I'm afraid I don't know how to make the headings line up with the data when I paste it in.

I know its hard to follow, but at least focus on the least column, which shows that the bottom 20% of tax payers pays 18% of total income, while the top 20% pays 19% of total income. Also notice that the bottom 20% pays a larger percentage of income that all other quintiles except that top one.

TAX BURDEN BY INCOME GROUP



INCOME
GROUP
AVERAGE
PRETAX
INCOME
TOTAL
GOVERNMENT TAX RECEIPTS
AS PERCENTAGE
OF
INCOME
Bottom 20% $7,946 $1,449 18%
Second 20% $20,319 $2,847 14%
Middle 20% $35,356 $5,622 16%
Fourth 20% $56,891 $$9,835 17%
Top 20% $116,666 $21,623 19%

Government receipts include federal and state taxes, social security contributions (employee’s share), property taxes, utility taxes, federal and state tobacco taxes, federal and state alcohol taxes, federal and state gasoline taxes and state sales tax.

Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics

Nice chart Bill,not very representative of reality:redcard::bsflag:.

Go back to school and find out about earned income credit.It more than offsets the pittance low income workers pay in SSI(we all know they don't pay income taxes)then there is medicaid,how much value is there in free healthcare and meds.Say,maybe another 5 to 10K per person a year.Then there are programs like foodstamps,free food giveaways,WIC etc at the Federal level.At the state and local level there are housing,utilities and transportation costs that we absorb.

Looks like to me that using reality math as opposed to liberal math that these folks are a burden on society.
As far as paying 18% on 116K that's horseshit and you know it.I pay anywhere from 45% to 66% of my gross on income,SSI,unemployment,gas tax,corporate tax and associated fees.Then I pay my own insurance for work comp and healthcare outta what's left.

Were you trolling with that?Or do you REALLy believe the po pay thier fair share in life?

I don't mind supporting veterans, but I absolutly cannot stand supporting lazy po people taxwise or healthcare wise. Insurance is a benefit or something you optionally pay for. Simply being alive does not give you the right to be supported by the rest of the world. Where do I sign up for this 18%? I am going boat shopping if that is a option. And where are my food stamps? I'm hungry too! :D

Forgot property tax,death tax,the regressive redistribution inherent in SSI.The above more than than compensate any "perceived" burden the poor pay.

The FairTax offers prebates to all in the amount of the tax that would have been spent on basic necessities.Thereby the poor retain thier right to empty my pockets,everybody is happy.The new influx of cash from the "under the table" crowd and criminals could be pretty stunning.