I have been tying my own bands for a while now and the other day a good friend was having trouble with a set of bands he had bought from a shop. The bands where a blue material and very hard to load. He is a very experienced shooter and diver and brought the issue up one day. I had an extra set of black bands laying around and offer them up. He explained that they had tested two basically identical guns one with NEW 9/16 black bands and the new 5/8 blue bands and had almost double the range with the 9/16 bands. This reminded me of something I had heard about those mean green bands. I heard or read somewhere that they where a bitch to pull and had good snap but only for a short distance. Distance meaning how far they stayed with the shaft, pushing it down the track. This got me thinking about how a 9/32 shaft is faster than a 5/16 shaft but the 5/16 will travel farther with more force due to it's mass.

SOOOOOOO,, now that you have read all this mental vomit, would adding weight or mass to a wishbone on a band cause it to, 1. stay with the shaft longer and 2. push it down the track faster or harder due to the added weight? I have a few ideas on how to add the weight but wanted to run this buy you guys first to see if I am just loosing it.

Thanks :toast:

OK 12 people have looked this over and nothing,,:crazy: so I must be loosing it.

I know that if it did help it would minimal at best but it was just a thought.

I'm tryin to figure out if you're saying the shaft is out running the wishbone? I think the band material itself is the culprit, each having more or less energy potential at diff points of elasticity. I've used some fat bands that had no ass for the first 2/3 of the draw but then really kicked in on that final 1/3.. where as another band material has a steady power curve which I believe applies more energy for a greater amount of time and I believe accounts for that "smooth" feeling you get from good rubber. Then again I could just be talkin outa my arse:smthumbup:

I'm trying to figure out if weight was added to the wishbone if it would force the shaft down the track harder and longer. Say that you added it at the point where the wishbone goes into the band.

The description of the band situation was worthless background info that lead up to my idea :D

I'm trying to figure out if weight was added to the wishbone if it would force the shaft down the track harder and longer. Say that you added it at the point where the wishbone goes into the band.

The description of the band situation was worthless background info that lead up to my idea :D

If you add weight to the wishbone, it will only slow down the shaft, and it will lose energy.

Also if there is more downward pressure on the shaft, it will only cuase more friction, further slowing the shaft down.

The downward pressure on the bands is all you need to keep the shaft down.

I see your point to a certain extent. I could see it slowing down the shaft if too much weight was added but at what point does the weight slow it down?

Same thing with a 9/32 and 5/16 shaft. The 9/32 is faster but the 5/16 will travel farther with more inertia than the 9/32.

OK, the short answer is no, it will not benefit performance. I sense from all your past posts that you already understand the dynamics of a gun and what goes into its component mix, so I'm sure you know each aspect of the gun is a variable that must work synergistically with all the others when combined. If one variable is too strong, too weak, too heavy, too thin, too etc. etc., the gun will not be set up at its maximum potential performance and can actually yeild some pitiful performance.

Electricians can think of this in terms of volts and amps. Plumbers can think of this in terms of pressure and velocity.

Hypothetically, if you had a magical wishbone that weighed a pound and you set the bands to pull a specific shaft at it's maximum allowable velocity without getting shaft whip, you can get the same performance by using a lighter wishbone and less strong bands.

My personal opinion is that the "roller gun" design which is very rare and as far as I am aware not produced in mass by any of the major manufacturers, is the most under recognized design available. To have a semi-consistant pull from the trigger mechanism to almost all the way up to the muzzle is just shear performance bliss if designed right.

Maybe some members of the previous generation (Prodanovich era) or anyone who has experimented with their own versions could chime in. Sorry if my post doesn't read concisely, I have had a couple of drinks at a family gathering and I am a bit tired, but I like to check SP before I turn in.

:)

Sounds like you're describing the sabot theory used in guns, using a sabot to harness momentum that, once the bands no longer push, would continue sending the shaft until maximum velocity at which point it could fall away like a booster rocket on the space shuttle.. The only reason they use sabots in guns is to keep the projectile lite with maximum propulsion, so, I guess theoretically it could work... to much thinking without beer...

I found this. There is a lot more, but I just grabbed this to post before bed.

http://rocknfish.com/Rolstead_Rollergun.html

:)

No shit,,, I'm heading to the fridge.:toast:

Man I really like the idea of that roller gun, you'd have to get 30% more energy from a setup like that. Only thing is with 3 bands it might be bulky(and a bitch ta pull back)

I found this. There is a lot more, but I just grabbed this to post before bed.

http://rocknfish.com/Rolstead_Rollergun.html

:)

Just get a Deathstick, you will be better off.

[QUOTE=Noah;20556]Sounds like you're describing the sabot theory used in guns, using a sabot to harness momentum that, once the bands no longer push, would continue sending the shaft until maximum velocity at which point it could fall away like a booster rocket on the space shuttle.. The only reason they use sabots in guns is to keep the projectile lite with maximum propulsion, so, I guess theoretically it could work... to much thinking without beer...[/QUO

Roller gun = clutter = less manuverability/more difficulty in handling. Like has been said before, it's obsolete unless laws come into effect that limit a speargun to having one band.

Gamble, it's good to get the creative juices flowing but let this one go.. :crazy: :)

I should mention that the effect you're looking for, a force accelerating the spear until the last possible moment has always been a principle of pneumatic spearguns. That is the reason why they have so little recoil/muzzle kick and are so accurate.

It was just a thought,, thanks for showing me the light fellas.

not sure if it really relates...but i think to some extent it does.

in my youth (yeah i'm soooo old) i shot archery ALOT....practice, hunting and target (although never competed).

and one thing i DO remember is that weight added to the center of the bow string...basically where the arrow is nocked...has a negative affect on arrow speed. basically due to increaseing the amount of mass that the bow's stored energy has to move...which translates to less speed.

therfore i don't think adding weight to the wishbone is the way to go about what you are thinking


also....

the mass of the arrow is enough to keep the string nocked untill it reaches the end of it's power stroke, at which time the arrow releases from the string and travels down range.

transfering that idea over to a speargun means that (as you've stated..or tried) the longer you can keep the band in contact with the shaft the more power you will have.
now...the weight of the spear is more than enough to produce ample resistence to movement (ie resistence to the thrust of the bands) to keep the wishbone in the notch for the majority of the power stroke of the band. because after a set distance the force exerted by the band will be less than that which is needed by the shaft to accelerate.

so to me the key is to find the middle ground between band length and stretchiness. because by increasing the power stroke of the band will increase the amount of energy it transfers to the shaft.

this is one reason i'm not fond of guns that have many bands that are all long. like those on some Riffe guns, they come from the factory with 3 bands that are all 28" long...while the same length (band stretch lenght...not total gun length) gun that i have uses 2 bands that are 20" long.

basically the longer bands are coming out of their powerstroke several inches sooner than the bands that i use, so they have to compensate by using more bands.

now i've tried some of that Mean-Green stuff....the band was 2" longer than my SS amber bands...and i couldn't come close to loading it on my big guns. i could get it to a point and then it would hit a wall...it wasn't my strenght's end...the band WOULDN'T stretch any more. the feel of that material made me realize that it must have ALOT of snap for a few inches of its powerstroke...then die totally.

everyone freaks when i tell them i shoot a 65" gun (48" of band stretch) with two 20" bands. if i recall the Riffe gun with similar stretch length uses 28" bands, 3 of them...8" is a HUGE difference. yet i think that i have similar power to a riffe...maybe slightly less...but i dont' have to drag a line since i freeshaft.


so i guess....after all that diaherra of the mouth....my point is to get more speed out of your gun, get a band that has better stretch characteristics and load a shorter band.

i love the SS amber material....it has a diffferent feel to it when loading compared to black...and it seems to stretch better at it's extremes.

By SS do you mean Spearfishing Specialties? I'd like to try it

Thanks Keez,

When you reference your 65" gun your referring to a SS type gun correct? I am currently shooting a 55" Mid-handle DeathStick and using 2 or 3 22" 5/8 bands depending on the day and where we are shooting. I also have noticed that some bands will have a lot of snap early in the power stroke but stop accelerating the shaft before the mid point of the barrel. It almost seemed that they where recoiling on themselves from the force they exerted early.

SOOO I guess that this post has turned into a hunt for the best band material.

lets see how the red stuff does........

OK, the short answer is no, it will not benefit performance. I sense from all your past posts that you already understand the dynamics of a gun and what goes into its component mix, so I'm sure you know each aspect of the gun is a variable that must work synergistically with all the others when combined. If one variable is too strong, too weak, too heavy, too thin, too etc. etc., the gun will not be set up at its maximum potential performance and can actually yeild some pitiful performance.

Electricians can think of this in terms of volts and amps. Plumbers can think of this in terms of pressure and velocity.

Hypothetically, if you had a magical wishbone that weighed a pound and you set the bands to pull a specific shaft at it's maximum allowable velocity without getting shaft whip, you can get the same performance by using a lighter wishbone and less strong bands.

My personal opinion is that the "roller gun" design which is very rare and as far as I am aware not produced in mass by any of the major manufacturers, is the most under recognized design available. To have a semi-consistant pull from the trigger mechanism to almost all the way up to the muzzle is just shear performance bliss if designed right.

Maybe some members of the previous generation (Prodanovich era) or anyone who has experimented with their own versions could chime in. Sorry if my post doesn't read concisely, I have had a couple of drinks at a family gathering and I am a bit tired, but I like to check SP before I turn in.

:)


Jim,

Thanks for the info. I fully understand how guns work and the dynamics involved in making them work correctly. The thought process behind my question was more from a refinement standpoint that anything else.

What have you found regarding band material and the differences between manufactures? I know there is a difference between most but I have never really researched the actual manufacturing process.

Thanks

My $.02

I think the more elasticity you can get the better off you are. In other words lighter bands with more stretch will put force on the spear for a longer period of time, hence more speed and give you that smooth motion instead of the bang that knocks your extra shafts out of the holders and causes bad shot placement and shaft whip. I think you have to look at it more as an air cannon and not a rifle.

The last 3 guns I sold which were all made at the same time and are identical and here are the reults.

1. Is using one monster band with lots of stretch. Says the gun is deadly accurate to 25 ft. 5/16 shaft Loves it. Did not shoot well with two monster bands. This guy weighs 350 easy and as I watched him load the gun the first time with two 11/16 bands pulled back to the point of near failure I thought "Well, if its ever gonna break it will be now". The gun had two much BANG with the two bands. One is all it needed.

2. Is using two smaller diameter bands ( Rays amber rubber) with lots of stretch and claims 30ft plus shots dead on. And this guy is not easy to get a compliment out of.

3. Doesn't like it says it feels loose and not real comfortable with it. Not as accuarate as he would like.

No#3 I will correct. The first thing I will do is look at the bands.

Speaking of band material, my fav has become the new gray 5/8in material from SS, although pricey. I don't read where any of yall have tried it - what do you think of it?

I have it currently and it seems to work but it feels like a mix of the mean green bands and the standard black bands. Much harder to pull than black or amber. I just need to get in the water set up some targets and start testing.

yes....SS means spearfishing specialties in my post


as for my gun...it's a custom built gun. has no muzzle...similar to a riffe...but its a freeshaft gun.

the downward force of the bands holds the shaft in...along with a small magnet in the muzzle (which has now lost most of its magnetism).

so basically is a riffe style mid-handle with biller trigger and shafts

oh and my 20" amber bands are 5/8"...with Ray's cable wishbones



here are some links to threads about the gun:
early phase (http://www.spearboard.com/showthread.php?t=17371&highlight=bamboo)
pretty much done (http://www.spearboard.com/showthread.php?t=17609&highlight=bamboo)

:smthumbup: Sounds like a cool setup.

Gamble

You are a sissy boy. I would tie you some tighter bands but I am afraid that you may crack a rib trying to load them.

Kahuna

I call BS on accurate 25-30ft shots (with a reef gun). I have people tell me they are hitting fish at 30ft with my guns and I tell them they are full of it. It is kinda like the guy who swears his grouper is 20lbs and then you put it on a scale and it weighs 10lbs.

The best band material is made by Primeline (SS, Riffe and others rig their guns with it). I like my bands as tight as I can make them. My buddy tells me "If I don't see stars when I load them, they aren't tight enough"

Currently, I am full of beer and opinions:toast: Feel free to disregard any of my statements. However, my wife tells me I'm always right.

I buy bulk rubber from primeline, I get the 1/8" inner diameter. I find that there is a difference between the black and amber bands, the amber is easier to pull at the same length. Which do you recommend Ken, the black or the amber? Also, what is your opinion on rubber stretched past 1 to 4 ratio losing power after being loaded for extended periods of time?

Gamble

You are a sissy boy. I would tie you some tighter bands but I am afraid that you may crack a rib trying to load them.

Kahuna

I call BS on accurate 25-30ft shots (with a reef gun). I have people tell me they are hitting fish at 30ft with my guns and I tell them they are full of it. It is kinda like the guy who swears his grouper is 20lbs and then you put it on a scale and it weighs 10lbs.

The best band material is made by Primeline (SS, Riffe and others rig their guns with it). I like my bands as tight as I can make them. My buddy tells me "If I don't see stars when I load them, they aren't tight enough"

Currently, I am full of beer and opinions:toast: Feel free to disregard any of my statements. However, my wife tells me I'm always right.


I loaded and continue to load your "man" bands just fine. If you want to send me a more manly set get to tying! :toast:

I buy bulk rubber from primeline, I get the 1/8" inner diameter. I find that there is a difference between the black and amber bands, the amber is easier to pull at the same length. Which do you recommend Ken, the black or the amber? Also, what is your opinion on rubber stretched past 1 to 4 ratio losing power after being loaded for extended periods of time?

I have never been able to tell any functional difference between the black and the amber. They are made from the same material. I think it is personnel preference more than anything. Some people like snappy band material and some like a spongier material. I have never done any tests on how much power is lost after the bands have been loaded for extended periods of time. I usually tie fresh ones every couple of trips. Band material is cheap compared to the other costs of spearfishing.

I just bought enough material for Gamble and myself to test out the red band material from Hammerhead on our identical deathsticks..except mines prettier thus will shoot better...As I understand it Kevinw/ Hammerhead www.hammerheadspearguns.com uses this material on all his guns...Stay tuned...

I have seen some tests done by manufacturers, and they said the color does not matter.

The color is added to the rubber or put on as an outer coating like kind of like a paint but not exactly, it does nothing to improve the strength of a band.

I just bought enough material for Gamble and myself to test out the red band material from Hammerhead on our identical deathsticks..except mines prettier thus will shoot better...As I understand it Kevinw/ Hammerhead www.hammerheadspearguns.com uses this material on all his guns...Stay tuned...

It's www.hammerheadmuzzles.com

I've used the red bands and they are really nice.... easier to pull back than the all black bands, and the red coating on them makes them really UV resistant...

I have seen some tests done by manufacturers, and they said the color does not matter.

The color is added to the rubber or put on as an outer coating like kind of like a paint but not exactly, it does nothing to improve the strength of a band.Not to say that the difference is for good or bad but there is a difference. In this case we're talking about black (solid) and amber rubber from the same manufacturer, Primeline. The difference is apparent when holding the rubber (something about the softness or texture), when grinding the taper on the bands (you can see the difference in the particulate), the way the rubber deteriorates over time, and of course when you pull it.

I know there's a difference, I just haven't defined which is better suited to my spear launching needs.

Color isnt a driver ..looking for the best material for bands..if the red helps w/uv the bands will certainly last longer..bonus..

the hammerhead speargun URL works too..

I prefer black band rubber because it lasts so much longer than amber, UV is the

culprit,

Hey Gamble, I'm glad to see that you are interested in finding the best sling material, I've been asking all over about Mean Green and other brands of rubber. Because when all is said and done, it still comes down to propulsion. Where can I find this super good 'amber' rubber?