There has been some recent killings of 4 or 5 Goliath Groupers on the East Coast. These killings are inexcuseable and the person responsible should be punished severely. However, these killings are being used to attack spearfishing and recreational fishing in an effort to derail the scientific studies of the GG.

As all of you know, there is a movement towards additional research of the Goliath Grouper. There is currently a tagging study underway. There are opponents to the collection of best available science of these animals. There is a FWRI email list that is to be used to share scientific date regarding the study amongst the scientists and other interested parties. It has recently been used to discredit and slander the sport of spearfishing, and recreational fishing in general.

This started with an email sent from Walt Stearns to Don Demaria(summerlandkey) discussing the spearing of 4 or 5 GG. Don proceeded to post it to the FWRI list serve. In addition to the email, Don made the following comment.

"Here is another interesting e-mail. It looks like fishermen (spearfishermen and hook and line) are just not going to stop killing Goliath grouper no matter what the law is.".

In an effort to defend the sport, I made the following post to the list-serve.
" Here is another interesting e-mail. It looks like enviros(tropical fish collectors) are just not going to stop killing Goliath grouper no matter what the law is to further their agenda. "

Clearly this was just as a rediculous as Don's post, but it got my point across. This may not have been the best way to deal with these attacks on my part. but I have no tolerance for attacks on our sport, especially to further an agenda based effort to stop the collection of scientific data because it may show that the GG population can sustain a limited harvest.

Don made another post yesterday regarding the sighting of about 50 GG on one piling in the keys. He then commented that he did not witness them eating other fish. My response to this was:

"We have witnessed this behavior quite a bit over the years on every wreck, ledge, pothole, and artificial reef in the Gulf, they are sometimes very social animals. The fact that there are so many on one spot is not very interesting or a new pattern. Is it possible that you are not sneaking up on them and they are acting different by not feeding in a diver's presence? Have you been hook and lining recently, go fish that pilings this weekend and tell me that GG don't eat fish. Perhaps they are more predatory towards wounded and struggling fish much like the sharks. I witness sharks swimming amongst fish all the time, does that indicate that they no longer feed on fish and have become vegans? It is my understanding that the limited stomach content studies were done on small animals? Where is the stomach content data regarding large animals other than personal observations from a single, commercial fisherman?

I have never participated in the GG feeding habits argument, all I know is that it takes a lot of daily intake to maintain the weight of these animals. They aren't eating sand and rocks to get that big. The fact that the population is now out of control in many areas seems to support the idea of further study in order to determine sustainability. Isn't the job of the FFWC and NMFS to manage the resource for the benefit of all? There are questions regarding every facet of their lives that can't be answered with videotaped observation, limited study on small animals, or data on related species from other countries. It is clear that they have rebounded dramatically, it is clear that they eat fish, and it is clear that we don't know much else. Why are we not moving forward with a thorough scientific study to answer these questions?

Just that one single piling was holding enough GG to satisfy a good percentage of the proposed GG scientific harvest. How many more ran out to the sand when you hit the water?

I always wondered why this fish with little or no commercial value being protected by a tiny number of activists? What do they know that I don't. I have recently learned that GG have huge commercial value. The commercial value of this fish is not by way of selling the fish, it is by selling GG dive charters, copyrighted GG photographs, and ads on online "journals". Due to the recent posts on this list-serve regarding the speared GG on the East coast I have done quite a bit of research on those individuals bringing these incidents to our attention. Is it a coincidence that nearly everyone reporting on speared GG are profiting from them being protected, although they are no longer endangered? These same groups are the very ones that would have us believe that there has been little rebound in population and that a SCIENTIFIC harvest is unwarranted. GG are a resource of the people, not of the dive operators and photographers to earn a living. From dive shops offering rewards, to dive charter operators that profit from taking divers out to swim among the GG, "the majestic teddy bears of the sea". Each of the websites of these groups contains advertisements using GG to drive profits, and it looks like business is good. Check out Walt's "Underwater Journal" sponsorship price list at http://www.underwaterjournal.com/pdf/MEDIAKit.pdf (http://www.underwaterjournal.com/pdf/MEDIAKit.pdf) . He is using GG photographs to sell ads spaces up to $4,800.

The photo of one of the speared GG that was posted to this list-serve was even copyrighted by Walt Stearns prior to being posted. Why would anyone copyright a photo of a dead GG unless he planned on profiting from it? Mr. Stearnes has publicly stated that "In a perfect world, no one would feel the need to kill a large, slow-growing fish that has little commercial value as food, but significant worth as a diving attraction while alive. To date, the spearfishing minority who seek to annihilate these fish either by illegal means(poaching) or legal loopholes(the harvest "Sample") have gained publicity and attention in disproportionate numbers to their actual numbers."

Apparently Walt does not understand that it is not just the spearfishing community demanding the best available science, it is the entire recreational fishing community that demands the best available science for GG and all species. It is clear to me that some people opposing the CRP(or CRAP study as they refer to it), have much to gain from the GG staying protected. They have used the same old tactics to get their way as they have used in the past. Commercial profits are being made by certain people while recreational interests are being denied access to this sustainable resource. Walt feels that scientific research is a "loophole" and that spearfishermen are poachers just out to "annihilate" the GG. This is hypocrisy at it's best.

It is hard for me to ignore that there is a pattern developing here, a pattern of persistent negativity towards spearfishing and recreational fishing, while profiting from the "protected" status of this overabundant ANIMAL. It's motivating these groups to try and stop any possibility of harvest for commercial, recreational or even SCIENTIFIC purpose. Its my sincere hope that any managers and decision makers reading these e-mails will see through the carefully orchestrated attempts to insulate this species from any further study that just may indicate that the population is far more healthier than some would like us to believe.

In closing: The emails circulating in the past week regarding speared GG appear to be part of an organized tactic to prove a certain level of bycatch and to attempt to discredit recreational fishing in general. These political tactics have no place in this list-serve. Do you gentlemen have any science to offer on GG older than 2 years old and taken from live fish in the U.S.?



Howie Scarboro"

Now there is no question that this is going to ruffle some feathers. However, I am not convinced that a true spearfisherman is out there shooting GG and leaving freeshafts in them, the timing is far too convenient for the opposition. Amazing that these people were all right there with cameras and videocameras to capture these images.

I implore everyone that loves the sport of spearfishing to take the time to research this issue. You guys are gonna be shocked when you start checking the links and see what is being said to discredit our sport and recreational fishing in general. The groups profiting from the protection of GG are working behind our backs to raise support from people with no idea of what is really going on.


Everyone here needs to read Walt's online newsletter at www.underwaterjournal.com (http://www.underwaterjournal.com). He has quoted Gamble and Denny out of context, and made negative comments about our sport. Don't forget to make note of the email addresses given for their followers to send the template letter, make your feelings known.

Where on his site did he quote me?

Never mind I found it. GAME ON!!

Where on his site did he quote me?

Never mind I found it. GAME ON!!

Did you catch the part where he says that spearfishermen want to annihilate the GG by way of poaching or legal loopholes?

"Amazing that these people were all right there with cameras and videocameras to capture these images."

Amazing indeed.

"Amazing that these people were all right there with cameras and videocameras to capture these images."

Amazing indeed.


I wouldn't be surprised if it was the fish huggers who did it so they could use that as a propaganda piece, I guess that gives a whole new meaning to "take one for the team".

Whoever did shoot those GG is real piece of shit and will be called out publicly if it is ever found it. The bigger problem here is that spearfishing is being accused of poaching and cheating the system by these people.

The truth is that we practice the single most selective fishing method. One shot, one kill and the only method with visual confirmation of the fish species and size.

I just read the article...I find it remarkable that a few individuals w/ megaphones dictate fishery science w/o any real data. Denny and Jeromy..you two need to respond in kind my brutha's.
We all know AND SEE what the GG stocks look like on a DAILY basis.
I as well as all of you have no problem with sound fishery science and will be the first in a long line of advocates for sound fishery management. We need to dispell the rumors of our detractors and demostrate our conservative voice.
Howie thanks for the heads up And to all who didnt think we are being closely watched...think again.......

Has anyone called Summerland out on this on the spearboard?

Where is the article or evidence that 5 or so jewfish were even speared? Is this just heresay at this point?

I haven't heard anything about this and would like to read up on it, if at all possible.

Has anyone called Summerland out on this on the spearboard?

Summerland Key is on this forum, and being that the general population of spearboard cares little about what goes on in the fishery management, I'd assume Summerland (Don) comes here more often. Whether to keep tabs on us or whatever.

Has anyone called Summerland out on this on the spearboard?

Why bother tony and his ass kissers like jfjf will just stick up for the guy or delete any negative comments or questions aimed at him or his buddies.

I want to see this pic of the GG with a spear in it's side...

Wow, what spearo in this world would freeshaft a GG and then leave his shaft in the thing like that?

It could've been a spearfisherman under attack. The GG population is burgeoning and don't have any fear from divers due to their endangered status. They are in serious competition with others for food. I have no doubt that a GG would be forceful in trying to steal a diver's stringer. The diver feeling for his safety may have defended himself and the GG swam off and died with his shaft.
But of course, the enviros, especially the ones getting paid to be one, would love the public to think that a spearfisherman maliciously freeshafted a GG just to satiate his carnal desire...because that's how we all are. We just kill and waste things for our own pleasure. :rolleyes:

I just read the article...I find it remarkable that a few individuals w/ megaphones dictate fishery science w/o any real data. Denny and Jeromy..you two need to respond in kind my brutha's.
We all know AND SEE what the GG stocks look like on a DAILY basis.
I as well as all of you have no problem with sound fishery science and will be the first in a long line of advocates for sound fishery management. We need to dispell the rumors of our detractors and demostrate our conservative voice.
Howie thanks for the heads up And to all who didnt think we are being closely watched...think again.......


I have no need or desire to argue with any of the environmentalists about a statement that I made that was taken out of context. The guy makes money off of taking people out to pet jewfish. I find it VERY questionable that the shaft in that pic is a BRAND NEW Euro shaft. There is no way it was in that fish for more than 24-48 hours if not MUCH less.

No comment...:cussing::cussing::cussing:

http://www.underwaterjournal.com/pdf/UWJ_issue4.pdf

"significant worth as a diving attraction while
alive. "

seems like he just looking out for his business of underwater photo pushing his opinon from what I read. Hopefully powers that be go by fact not opinons....:slap:

I must have missed that link.

What a total jack*********************************** idiot this Walt Stearns is. It appears he wants to piss off as many people as he can, like in the Jupiter hole-in-the-wall article. He writes an article saying that jewfish are still threatened, then prints a hole-in-the-wall picture several pages after with 13 jewfish in plain view, in the hole.

What a douchebag. Why is Zeagle advertising with those ***********************************s?

This Walt fellow is a real idiot. He's probably never even been in the water to find out how many GG's are out there... I just posted a thread the other day where I was catching juvenile GG's in less than 6' of water in the bays.. How in the hell can they not see evidence of spawning? A juvenile fish is not evidence? Here we have another case of people sitting behind a desk (who have no idea what's going on) making laws, or speaking out against laws, that affect fisheries they don't even begin to understand.. If I'm trout fishing and I catch GG's in numbers, it seems like they've done a good job of coming back and obviously some of them are spawning...

I'd say at least 60-70% of all reports posted on this website talk about seeing GG's and some see several per dive. It would be nice to live in a world where cold hard facts are taken at face value, instead of the crap that spills forth from some fish-hugging people.. How in the hell would a limited harvest of 800 GG kill the entire spawning stock of Florida? If that were the case, why are they no longer on the critically endangered list?

Also, what about the GG's that inhabit depths WAY too deep for divers? Any scientist will tell you that we know less about the depths of the ocean than we do about space.. Is it unreasonable to think that there are thousands of GG's, and various other types of grouper, that live in water much too deep to be reached by a diver? Maybe I'm stupid for thinking that but it seems logical that they'd be in the deep water as well?

PLEASE KEEP IN MIND EVERYTHING YOU POST HERE WLL BE COPIED AND MAY BE USED AGIENST US BY THSE THAT WANT TO DISCREDIT OUR SPORT,,,, THINK BEFORE YOU POST PLEASE.

PLEASE KEEP IN MIND EVERYTHING YOU POST HERE WLL BE COPIED AND MAY BE USED AGIENST US BY THSE THAT WANT TO DISCREDIT OUR SPORT,,,, THINK BEFORE YOU POST PLEASE.

That doesn't change the fact that Walt is an idiot.

I know, that's a no brainer, moving forward we need to watch each others back.

I have dove with Walt a few times, and each time I have carried a speargun along. He sometimes dives off of Randy Jordans boat which is VERY spearfishing friendly. He has never made any remarks to me that would indicate that he is against spearfishing in any way....but it is quite likely that he is "anti-idiot", which might describe someone who lobs a freeshaft into a jewfish.

I will send him a link to this thread and if he wants to respond, he will...

Edited to add that I do not agree with Walts thoughts that spearfishermen want to wipe out the GG population....there sure seem to be plenty of them around and could use a thinning out, judging soley from the spots I have been diving on...

PLEASE KEEP IN MIND EVERYTHING YOU POST HERE WLL BE COPIED AND MAY BE USED AGIENST US BY THSE THAT WANT TO DISCREDIT OUR SPORT,,,, THINK BEFORE YOU POST PLEASE.

Duely noted Gamble, Its just hard to control emotion when someone who has nothing to do with your sport is trying to make you look bad so they can put more money in there pocket.

Duely noted sir

I have never participated in the GG feeding habits argument, all I know is that it takes a lot of daily intake to maintain the weight of these animals.

Hi Howie-
I won't get into other aspects of your post, but simply wanted to add some information regarding the above statement since I have seen similar statements made before.

Just because an animal is big, does not mean it needs a lot of daily intake to maintain its weight.

- Fish are (generally) cold-blooded - therefore they do not need to expend energy for maintaining body temperature.
- Species that are active swimmers (e.g., sharks) consume more energy in locomotion than inactive or sedentary fish (e.g., jewfish).
- Larger fish have a lower metabolism rate per unit of weight than smaller fish.

While obviously not fish-related, but related to the subject, how often do you think a 12-foot boa constrictor eats?

All that being said, I am not maintaining jewfish won't snatch a hooked or speared fish. I don't think anyone with a clue would state that. Jewfish are opportunistic, and those scenarios present an easy meal for them. But its not like each jewfish needs to chow down on hundreds of pounds of seafood every day to survive.

Respectfully,
Mike

I will send him a link to this thread and if he wants to respond, he will...

Edited to add that I do not agree with Walts thoughts that spearfishermen want to wipe out the GG population....there sure seem to be plenty of them around and could use a thinning out, judging soley from the spots I have been diving on...


Hopefully, Walt will see this comment from you, Scott. Invariably, he will put his spin on it.
Walt is one of the guys who is dead set against ANY scientific take. He is aligned with the tour divers, for obvious reasons. Walt was at the Goliath Research planning meeting, fighing the need for science with advocacy of his own self serving position. Maybe that sells alot of advertising.

Hi Howie-
I won't get into other aspects of your post, but simply wanted to add some information regarding the above statement since I have seen similar statements made before.

Just because an animal is big, does not mean it needs a lot of daily intake to maintain its weight.

- Fish are (generally) cold-blooded - therefore they do not need to expend energy for maintaining body temperature.
- Species that are active swimmers (e.g., sharks) consume more energy in locomotion than inactive or sedentary fish (e.g., jewfish).
- Larger fish have a lower metabolism rate per unit of weight than smaller fish.

While obviously not fish-related, but related to the subject, how often do you think a 12-foot boa constrictor eats?

All that being said, I am not maintaining jewfish won't snatch a hooked or speared fish. I don't think anyone with a clue would state that. Jewfish are opportunistic, and those scenarios present an easy meal for them. But its not like each jewfish needs to chow down on hundreds of pounds of seafood every day to survive.

Respectfully,
Mike


EXACTLY, Mike. We know very little about how much food an adult goliath eats or is capable of eating.
The boa had been observed. The adult goliath remains a mystery to us.
I'm hoping that we have some of this information available soon. The information needed to assess the goliath stock is right before us, for the taking.

I really do wonder how much food a big goliath eats. They are not pelagic swimmers so they probably will not have the highest of intake requirements (relative to weight).

Mike- Is there any estimate available for any groupers on daily intake/body weight? I am not sure where to look for that one, so if you could be of assistance, I would appreciate it.

Mike- Is there any estimate available for any groupers on daily intake/body weight? I am not sure where to look for that one, so if you could be of assistance, I would appreciate it.

Not sure offhand, but I will check.

I think its a strange thing that the Spiny lobster population has been rapidly decreasing over the past few years and the GG rate has drastically increased in the gulf.

Copy of my email to Walt Stearns:

Dear Walt:

After reading your article about the return of Goliath Grouper, and the possibility of a limited harvest, I am compelled to give you some of my thoughts. Is it intentional of you to throw spearfishermen into some negative light here? This is what I gather from the structure of your article. I wish to remind you that spearfishermen are your fellow divers, sir, and they support you, your magazine, your excursions, many conservation organizations (not just the FRA), and your local dive shop. Be very careful in what you say about your fellow diver. Let's see, I was on a recreational dive where I witnessed another diver pluck a live rock from a protected coral reef for their home aquarium (absolutely illegal; right?). Should we assume that recreational divers are a threat to reefs and the conservation of our oceans because of the action of one or a few? You touched on the subject of longlining. I would think your writing effort would be better spent attacking the commercial sector - especially longlining. How many reefs do they destroy per trip, and how many Goliath Grouper end up dead with each longline set, day after day, year after year? Please put more effort into uncovering the biggest threat to GG (longlining), instead of bad mouthing your fellow divers. How dare you place a single quote from a diver (Gamble) to incorrectly display that quote to support of your way of thinking. Doesn't it make more sense to make those members of websites such as spearfishingplanet.com your friend instead of your enemy? You are quickly losing the respect of many, many, fellow divers. Those like you are the kind I am most concerned about in today's world - you always have hidden agendas in everything you say and do. Divers must stand united, not insult each other on these complex issues. Thank You, Captain Bill

AMEN Bill...

I know Mote Marine Lab used to have a big GG, I bet they'd have an idea how much one can eat.

Well here is what I sent him as well.

Disclaimer: Since I have upset a few on the board with my use of emoticons:rolleyes:, I made the effort to get this edited for content concerning the FRA before it was sent, so as not to piss anyone else off.:nono: It was edited by a respected member of the board and the central Florida dive community.:moon:

Dear Mr. Stearns:

I have found your article "The New Hope", published in the August/September edition of your web-zine, to be somewhat misleading, biased and completely off the mark as you have used generalities, assumptions and untruths as if they were facts.

"the latest threat to recovery" as you stated in reference to your earlier editorial in regards to the proposal set forth by the FRA to harvest 800 Goliath Grouper, was not at all threat to recovery. Rather, the proposal does have the benefit of harvesting the animals in the most selective form of harvest that may be accomplished, that being by spear. The harvest of individual animals for study is agreed by scientists as necessary to study stock assessment of the species. The MANNER of harvest, again spearing being the most selective, was at the heart of the proposal.

You also stated 'Many felt that the proposal was created to appease a small but highly vocal group of semi-commercial and recreational spearfisherman based primarily along Florida's central Gulf Coast", to which I would ask you to provide a definition of semi-commercial. The word may be a small part of the dialogue but I find it very misleading to someone who may not be fully informed.

And again, "which hopes to (the FRA) completely lift or partially open goliath groupers to harvesting in Florida waters.). Sir, please show me documentation of this stance or opinion on goliath grouper by the FRA. I have yet to see it and would be grateful for the information.

In regards to your statement in paragraph five "most fisheries biologists and divers-in-the-know recognize the perils of reinstating the killing practice that so nearly wiped out these fish in the 1970's and '80's.", you have insinuated that the FRA has proposed a season for the fish. That is not the case at all. The proposal was offered as a helping hand in the stock assessment efforts to determine whether this species is ready to be harvested in a sustainable manner. Your comments are extremely slanted to the point of being over the line, so to speak. No one has proposed reinstating a perminate open season on the goliath grouper that I am aware of.

"The one thing that can be said of this group with certainty is the zeal with which they pursue the opportunity to kill these large groupers." is another inaccurate depiction of the group, in fact, it is an outright lie! As apart of the spearfishing community and a reader of the online forum you have referenced in your article, I, nor anyone or known members of the FRA have EVER exhibited a propensity on any level to pursue opportunities to kill goliath groupers.

As for the reference and to and quote of "Gamble", I believe you have taken his statement (partial) out of context for the purpose to slant your article.

In paragraph eleven, you made references to "new plans" being in the works. What are these news plans compared to, the old plans? What were the old plans? Did they involved spearfishing? Again you have insinuated that spearfishermen have a hold on and have been harvesting these fish which is absolutely absurd. And, as alluded to above, the scientists are discussing the "harvest" as a method of obtaining individual animals for study.

In paragraph fifteen you referenced the phrase of "historical range" and the fact that the historical range applies not only to Florida. Well, sir, for the purposes of fisheries management in Florida, the phrase "historical range" has been applied correctly and does not involve the species in other countries. Other countries have their own management bodies and management of their fisheries should be left up to those bodies. Are you such a expert that you can instruct other countries on how to perform their management responsibilities? I think not.

And in paragraph sixteen you quoted Barbieri as saying that "we are very far from the truth and the knowledge we need to make informed recommendations to managers who must manage these species.", and we all agree on that statement.Especially the spearfisherman and the FRA.

And in paragraph twenty one, "until we are able to educate all user groups to the importance of sustainable fisheries management policies, regulation remains the only safeguard.", again is an absurd statement as you have insinuated again that the spearfisherman are the uneducated group. Spearfishermen are the only group who selectively harvest fish without the indiscriminate bycatch found with commercial longliners, netting and recreational hook and line fishing methods.

And in paragraph twenty two you have alluded to the group of spearfisherman who "seek to annihilate these fish" is a another out and out lie. There is not one spearfisherman I have met in my lifetime that seeks to annihilate any species. That would knowingly destroy all future opportunities for harvest of a species which is contrary to even a base amount of intellect to any individual, much less an informed spearfisherman, as most are.

In closing, your attempt to slant public view of spearfishermen as a group is a transparent slight of hand that can be spotted from far away by even the most uninterested of individuals. Your regurgitation of disinformation will not go unnoticed or unchecked. Our community will keep a watchful eye on you and your associates. I am afraid for you that you will be shown, at worst, to be a puppet used for the purpose of a so called educator in his attempt to capture grant money from the goverment or at best, to be merely a crony of the same group with whom those "educators" conspire.

Wake up Mr. Stearns, we are all watching.

Roger Rowe

Excellent, Roger!

Well here is what I sent him as well.

Disclaimer: Since I have upset a few on the board with my use of emoticons:rolleyes:, I made the effort to get this edited for content concerning the FRA before it was sent, so as not to piss anyone else off.:nono: It was edited by a respected member of the board and the central Florida dive community.:moon:

Dear Mr. Stearns:

I have found your article "The New Hope", published in the August/September edition of your web-zine, to be somewhat misleading, biased and completely off the mark as you have used generalities, assumptions and untruths as if they were facts.
In addition, the harvest would include multiple types of harvest methods and NOT just spear.

"the latest threat to recovery" as you stated in reference to your earlier editorial in regards to the proposal set forth by the FRA to harvest 800 Goliath Grouper, was not at all threat to recovery. Rather, the proposal does have the benefit of harvesting the animals in the most selective form of harvest that may be accomplished, that being by spear. The harvest of individual animals for study is agreed by scientists as necessary to study stock assessment of the species. The MANNER of harvest, again spearing being the most selective, was at the heart of the proposal.

You also stated 'Many felt that the proposal was created to appease a small but highly vocal group of semi-commercial and recreational spearfisherman based primarily along Florida's central Gulf Coast", to which I would ask you to provide a definition of semi-commercial. The word may be a small part of the dialogue but I find it very misleading to someone who may not be fully informed.

And again, "which hopes to (the FRA) completely lift or partially open goliath groupers to harvesting in Florida waters.). Sir, please show me documentation of this stance or opinion on goliath grouper by the FRA. I have yet to see it and would be grateful for the information.

In regards to your statement in paragraph five "most fisheries biologists and divers-in-the-know recognize the perils of reinstating the killing practice that so nearly wiped out these fish in the 1970's and '80's.", you have insinuated that the FRA has proposed a season for the fish. That is not the case at all. The proposal was offered as a helping hand in the stock assessment efforts to determine whether this species is ready to be harvested in a sustainable manner. Your comments are extremely slanted to the point of being over the line, so to speak. No one has proposed reinstating a perminate open season on the goliath grouper that I am aware of.

"The one thing that can be said of this group with certainty is the zeal with which they pursue the opportunity to kill these large groupers." is another inaccurate depiction of the group, in fact, it is an outright lie! As apart of the spearfishing community and a reader of the online forum you have referenced in your article, I, nor anyone or known members of the FRA have EVER exhibited a propensity on any level to pursue opportunities to kill goliath groupers.

As for the reference and to and quote of "Gamble", I believe you have taken his statement (partial) out of context for the purpose to slant your article.

In paragraph eleven, you made references to "new plans" being in the works. What are these news plans compared to, the old plans? What were the old plans? Did they involved spearfishing? Again you have insinuated that spearfishermen have a hold on and have been harvesting these fish which is absolutely absurd. And, as alluded to above, the scientists are discussing the "harvest" as a method of obtaining individual animals for study.

In paragraph fifteen you referenced the phrase of "historical range" and the fact that the historical range applies not only to Florida. Well, sir, for the purposes of fisheries management in Florida, the phrase "historical range" has been applied correctly and does not involve the species in other countries. Other countries have their own management bodies and management of their fisheries should be left up to those bodies. Are you such a expert that you can instruct other countries on how to perform their management responsibilities? I think not.

And in paragraph sixteen you quoted Barbieri as saying that "we are very far from the truth and the knowledge we need to make informed recommendations to managers who must manage these species.", and we all agree on that statement.Especially the spearfisherman and the FRA.

And in paragraph twenty one, "until we are able to educate all user groups to the importance of sustainable fisheries management policies, regulation remains the only safeguard.", again is an absurd statement as you have insinuated again that the spearfisherman are the uneducated group. Spearfishermen are the only group who selectively harvest fish without the indiscriminate bycatch found with commercial longliners, netting and recreational hook and line fishing methods.

And in paragraph twenty two you have alluded to the group of spearfisherman who "seek to annihilate these fish" is a another out and out lie. There is not one spearfisherman I have met in my lifetime that seeks to annihilate any species. That would knowingly destroy all future opportunities for harvest of a species which is contrary to even a base amount of intellect to any individual, much less an informed spearfisherman, as most are.

In closing, your attempt to slant public view of spearfishermen as a group is a transparent slight of hand that can be spotted from far away by even the most uninterested of individuals. Your regurgitation of disinformation will not go unnoticed or unchecked. Our community will keep a watchful eye on you and your associates. I am afraid for you that you will be shown, at worst, to be a puppet used for the purpose of a so called educator in his attempt to capture grant money from the goverment or at best, to be merely a crony of the same group with whom those "educators" conspire.

Wake up Mr. Stearns, we are all watching.

Roger Rowe


Roger,
If I can make a couple clarifications?
The FRA DID NOT and has NOT made any proposal to harvest 800 animals.
That recomendation came strait from FWC and NMFS scientists.
They even halved the number from 1600 animals as a precautionary measure.
Also, Any harvesting of animals would be done by many different gear types and not just spear.

Roger,
If I can make one clarification?
The FRA DID NOT and has NOT made any proposal to harvest 800 animals.
That recomendation came from FWC.
The FWC actually halved the number from 1600 animals as a precautionary measure even.

Absolutely. That is why I put it out there. I have been looking at FRA info for only a few months, basically since just before this board was up an going.

I will send a follow up email to Stearns for a correction. Thanks for the input, Rich.

Thanks, Marcus.

That is a great letter, Roger!!!

:toast:

Well here is what I sent him as well.Well, I have certainly dissagreed with you in the past, but this was good work.

:beer:Well written Roger..

I want to see this pic of the GG with a spear in it's side...
http://wetpixel.com/i.php/full/goliath-groupers-speared-in-florida/
Here is a site that has the picture of the GG with a spear in it..

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ztW-p3asxts
Also, Here is the video from Channel 5 news... There are also some other interesting videos on youtube if you search GG.

Wow, they are quick to say someone was poaching huh? How do they know the diver wasn't defending himself? bunch of BS if you ask me...

Also saying that the vier tried to get the shaft out....WHAT THE F%#^??? A freeshaft isnt exactly a task to pull out of a fish, especially if you pull it out tail last...

Amazing how that dead GG swam off!!! Look I think it's lame that someone shot it but to attempt to blame it on "spearfishermen" or the FRA is 100% propaganda. No one knows why the fish was shot. Maybe it was an accident, maybe it tried to pull a fish off their stinger and they panicked who knows. Jumping to conclusions will do nothing for GG or the community.

The article states that one GG was found with a shaft in it's mouth. That probably happened when it sucked up a fish that someone shot and got more than a mouth full. Good thing it will rust out.

Excellent responses, the GG issues is extremely complicated and one that is being watched closely by the FRA. However, the FRA does not have the resources to make a stand when our sport is attacked for political reasons. That is up to each of us. It is these types of generalizations that give the public a negative outlook towards divers.

let me first start by saying i am completely offended by the name GOLIATH GROUPER. jewfish was a much more respectable name. Goliath according to Biblical text was a Philistine who was fighting to destroy the jews. does that make Goliath a nazi? how quickly would a Hitler fish be renamed? this issue must be resolved before i suffer any further.

none of these accusations should make any difference in the study that will harvest 800 fish. the news report on utube was typical over dramatized "news." nearly extinct? no one knows whether they were or were not close to extinction. there is hardly any science on these fish and we now have a proposal before a group to gather science.

if i was running charters to take divers to sight see JEWFISH i would cry all the way to the media and try to take the enviro-fish friendly path any time i saw a wounded fish. i would also raise unfounded fears and concerns over a harvest of the fish i was making money on. look what it did for the Jupiter dive shop and the captain featured on utube, they got a free 5 minute segment advertising their sight seeing operation.

also as a side note to poke at the fish huggers. if these fish are in a "spawning" aggregation shouldn't divers be restricted in their access to the "spawning" area? from the looks of the news video on utube those fish were being harassed by the sight see'ers and they could possibly be disrupting any "spawning" that might be occurring.

matter of fact lets stop harvesting and harassing all sea life and buy our sea food from the freezer section of Publix with the nice little print on the bottom of the package that says PRODUCT OF CHINA! :FIREdevil:

Ben.. I too am offended by their lack of anti semitism..:angel3:
Bravo Ben-ja-min..I agree and also feel the sightsee'ers must be stopped during the spawn..any idea what you name means??:D

The article states that one GG was found with a shaft in it's mouth. That probably happened when it sucked up a fish that someone shot and got more than a mouth full. Good thing it will rust out.

I was thinking the same thing. For them to spin it as spearfishermen maliciously shooting them is ludicrous and thin veiled as to their intentions.

as a long time spearfisherman I am concerened about the safety of divers when confronted by this large fish in schooling numbers that we see them in now .I have had my arm swallowed and received numerous cuts from GG .they need to be thinned to the point of management and sustainability similar to Fla's gator population.We can't afford to have divers threatend,hurt or killed.I had 3 on a small ledge this weekend.they have gotten to be much to common and aggressive.Do the research and come up with a plan.

Well, I have certainly dissagreed with you in the past, but this was good work.

Thanks JLittle, Scott and Ed. Sometimes I get fired up. Can't stand a liar.

also as a side note to poke at the fish huggers. if these fish are in a "spawning" aggregation shouldn't divers be restricted in their access to the "spawning" area? from the looks of the news video on utube those fish were being harassed by the sight see'ers and they could possibly be disrupting any "spawning" that might be occurring.

I agree 100%... You can't touch or harass a manatee because of the "trauma" it could cause them, then how in the hell can this guy make a living off of harassing a Goliath Grouper? Better yet, bringing loads of people in to harass the GG's? If they're so rare and scarce, how is he successfully finding them on his trips to take people out to see them? Also, if the Biologists of the FWC do open up a season/bag limit for them, isn't he pretty much damning the GG's by going around and playing with them?

http://wetpixel.com/i.php/full/goliath-groupers-speared-in-florida/
Here is a site that has the picture of the GG with a spear in it..

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ztW-p3asxts
Also, Here is the video from Channel 5 news... There are also some other interesting videos on youtube if you search GG.

At 2:35 in that video is where the whole thing is explained and it's pretty sickening..... "Money is being spent in Florida to see these fish." So, since when did that become the main factor in the deciding of our conservation laws? No, we can't kill this fish because it brings in significant income to my dive shop!! The horror! Anyone who has half a brain understood what Walt was trying to do, get a free plug for his shop and put it up on the news... I wouldn't say a thing if I thought this guy really wanted to save the GG's instead of save his paycheck... Hypocrisy at it's finest.

I wouldn't say a thing if I thought this guy really wanted to save the GG's instead of save his paycheck... Hypocrisy at it's finest.


This is the core of the problem. FWC wants to harvest GG for scientific study to gather valuable data they NEED TO ASSESS THE STATUS OF THE SPECIES in our waters. No one has any REAL SCIENTIFIC DATA showing GG need to be saved, protected, harvested on a limited basis or thinned out. I can understand a person wanting to enforce the laws on GG. But jumping to conclusions about how or why a GG dies or has a shaft in it is NOT RIGHT.

It is quite possible that GG are over populated and damaging to the reefs and wrecks they live on. It's possible that their feeding habits don't effect the reefs and wrecks they live on. BUT without knowing the feeding habits of the larger fish that are more and more abundant WE CAN'T KNOW.

I think it would be quite damaging to the environmental groups if it was proven that the GG population is actually harming the areas they live in by over feeding. The environmental groups SHOULD be out to protect ALL species through solid fact based fisheries management. If one species it damaging the populations of others because of poor species management caused by their efforts it would PROVE how important these studies are.

Interesting.. If NO STUDIES have been performed..HOW do they know the population was being decimated way back when the ban was enacted??:bsflag:

I was talking about their present population. There is no question that GG where taken at an alarming rate and their population WAS over fished extensively prior to the closure.

There is no question that GG where taken at an alarming rate and their population WAS over fished extensively prior to the closure.


Actually there is some question as to how "in trouble" the population was.

Much of the data used to close the harvest of GG was based on the notes of one commercial fisherman surveying only a handfull of wrecks in the Eastern GOM.
Ive been told from reliable sources that there were other fisherman harvesting from the wrecks that he thought were his own and this may have seriously skewed his findings.
Ive spoken with other divers who say the population was not nearly as bad as claimed.
So what do we believe?

I participated in the following assesment and the only thing that we were sure of was that we dont know much.
http://www.gulfcouncil.org/beta/gmfmcweb/downloads/goliathfinalSEDAR2004.pdf
Believe it or not, the data used to close the season in 1990 is not much different than what we have now(2007)!
The only real difference in my opinion is that we have a whole lot more information/data on juvenile GG grouper.
But we certainly dont have it on the larger animals!

We do not have data on fish that may have been around pre-ban.
We dont even know how big these pre-ban fish would be now.
Are all the 300 pound fish we see now pre-ban or post ban?
What about the 400 pounders?
What about a 200 pounder!?
How old is a 300 pound fish?
How old is a 400 pound fish? 500 Lb?
How long can a GG live!?
How big can a GG get?
What, and how much does a fully mature GG eat?
Are GG like other types of grouper that change sex? Believe it or not the scientists dont know for sure!
Does their ability to reproduce continue to grow exponentially as they grow larger or does it peak and taper off at a certain age?
We dont know.
We dont know the answer to these, and many other questions because this "fish" has taken on an almost mystical status among activists and extremists who wish to protect it at any cost.

I simply cant understand WHY the people who fight so hard to protect this species would not be fully in support of science that may very well tell us that the species can not withstand any harvest ever. :banghead::confused:

Obviously none of us wants to see these fish dissapear as the extremists would like to make everyone think. I think these fish are still one of the most amazing things to see underwater and I would fight hard to protect them if I thought their population was in trouble as would most dvers, including spearfisherman!
What the extremists fail to undersatnd is that the questions will not go away because they stomp their feet and cry.
The questions will remain until they are answered, sooner or later.
Its only a matter of time...

Personnaly... I think we have much bigger problems on our hands with Gag grouper, snapper, amberjack, MPA's, IFQ's, and Magnuson and all our resources and attention needs to be focused on the battles comming up in regards to these issues.

Its a Spearboard charter guy who is publicizing and sensationalizing that. He's as big an ass as the dork that speared the fish. :pissed:

Jewfish were never, ever overfished or anywhere near extinction. That is a complete fabrication.

Jewfish have overwhelmed the Gulf of Mexico. From my observations of nearly 25 years underwater, this protected status has harmed rather than improved the Gulf.

Those people that are perpetuating these lies are responsible for this.

I was talking about their present population. There is no question that GG where taken at an alarming rate and their population WAS over fished extensively prior to the closure.



No brother.... wasnt questioning you at all...
I "thought" I had been told NO studies have EVER been performed on mature stock.
I cant say I believe there was EVER an issue of the species being harmed...More voodoo math:bsflag:... heightened awareness as a result of some enviro saying its so...complete and utter BS :bsflag::bsflag::bsflag:
And I'm not sure "alarming" is accurate..More awareness maybe but if it's like everything else we're forced to swallow...............I've always said if it looks fishey, tastes fishy and smells fishing it gotta be Horseshit...

Why doesn't this magazine or W. Stearns answer emails? My letter was emailed on the 24th. Must be a pretty sorry outfit that doesn't respond to letters!

another question we should ask is what is the jewfish's natural predator, does it even have one, if not, how was population controlled before humans began targeting them?

Opening up a LIMITED recreational harvest of jewfish would take pressure off other species, i.e blacks and gags. Most fisherman would be content with one jewfish that weighed 50 lbs for table fare, much less a fish weighing 200+ lbs. It would be wasteful to take a large jewfish as well as taking your limit in other fish.

As a side note, its not illegal to shoot a jewfish that is threatening you, much like a shark, the law states that harvest is prohibited, and while i don't advocate shooting jewfish for target practice, i will, should the situation arise, not hesitate to defend myself or my catch.

Its a Spearboard charter guy who is publicizing and sensationalizing that. He's as big an ass as the dork that speared the fish. :pissed:

Jewfish were never, ever overfished or anywhere near extinction. That is a complete fabrication.

Jewfish have overwhelmed the Gulf of Mexico. From my observations of nearly 25 years underwater, this protected status has harmed rather than improved the Gulf.

Those people that are perpetuating these lies are responsible for this.


If John says it, I believe it. Plain and simple...

I have read many articles about spearing in the gulf and you would be surprised at how much Screen name is mentioned in these articles. some dating back to the early 80's. Also Ray Odor is another individual that has first hand experience when these guys were allowed to be fished. He has footage of him in the water in Tampa bay shooting GG like it was nothing!

Advice from these 2 gentleman alone have cleared my eyes and I know what I have seen in my short career as a shooter.

GG need to be removed from the protected list, they are hurting the gulf and are over populated.