I said after DAN and I sorted out the claim that I'd post up a summary about what happened to me. Here goes, to the best of my memory (it was summertime).

We'd been diving nonstop all summer, and on this particular trip alot of stuff 150+, all on lean nitrox. I dove down, 2nd dive of the day and found lots of nice gags! Shot me a few fish and on the way back to the line, a bunch of nice hogs swam in but I had to go. Doing my hang, I look at the computer and it says I have '6ft ceiling' which translates to about 2-3 more minutes of deco. I abort this remaining deco, and pop to the surface to tell the next diver to get his shit ready. I felt fine at the surface, so I swam over to the boat and just got in. A few minutes later I had some itching and then mild dull pain. I should've gotten back in the water and recompressed myself right then and there, I'd of saved myself alot of trouble. See, on the previous trip I had very similar pain in the other arm, but it went away after about 2-3 days. I chalked it up to the infamous 'spearfishing shoulder' muscle exertion pain. So I kept diving, and diving, and diving and then the pain got so severe that I couldn't lift things with my right arm, so I stopped diving. I figured since the last one went away, this one would too. Nope. 5 days later, I still had non-stop pain and my arm quivered when I would pick up a gallon of milk, let alone my 60lb kid. Called DAN, told them what was up and they sent my to Baptist downtown for chamber ride #1. 7.5 hours, then 2.5 hours the next day. Felt good as new coming out of there, even after 5 days of being bent.
I got lucky.

Well, opening lobster trip was next trip on the commercial boat. This was a trip I'd been looking forward to all year, and I'd be damned if I missed this one. So I went, and got bent again in the other arm on the first dive. I was flabbergasted. So anyway, I finished out an excellent trip with Goin' Deep (wow haven't seen him around since the meat season, that whore) and the skipper and knew I was bent, but not as badly. I knew I couldn't call DAN b/c this happened on the commercial boat and would not be covered by DAN. So I loaded up every pony bottle I could get my hands on with pure 02, took some 32% tanks and loaded up the girlfriend for a little DCS treatment at the springs. I still have some slight issues from this, but I was able to get rid of about 90% of the pain. It comes and goes sometimes, still a whole lot better than it was and alot cheaper than 10k.

Moral of the story: DO ALL YOUR DECO! IF YOU KNOW YOU'RE BENT, GET BACK IN THE WATER AND DON'T ACT LIKE IT'S TOO INCONVENIENT!

DAN paid for the whole claim, which was a little over 10k. The hospital billed me twice for something, and that's the only thing DAN didn't pay, but the hospital hasn't sent me anymore bills about stuff that needs paid. I hope that charge goes away, it was for like 943.00 for checking into the emergency room (which I didn't do the 2nd day, I had an appointment). DAN didn't give me any shit about paying the claim, they paid when they said they would, etc. I was quite happy to see it go so smoothly, some of the stories I've read on here made me seriously doubt DAN insurance. From the mouth of a 5 year preferrred member, it's worth it. I've paid 500$ for my 5 years of DAN coverage and my chamber ride was over 10K. Awesome value IMO.

glad youre on the road to recovery!! thanks for postin this info on DCS hit.

pussy....

I mean.... glad you are OK:yay:Tommy.
It was good to see you guys,I am upside down with procrastinators getting their houses right just before the holidays.
Look forward to seeing you guys in a month or so and see if we can't give you a case of"spearfishing shoulder' on the for real side.

Great post & glad you're doing well. You are right on with the get back in the water comment.:smthumbup::smthumbup:

Glad you are ok. f-in scary sh!t. I dont think it would have mattered if you were on a commercial boat if you diving rec:whistle:

I have always told myself that I would get back in if I took a hit. How long did you hang at the springs before you could tell that it was helping? Just wondering ?

thx for the info...Glad your recovering...makes ya wonder if it's worth "goin deep"
DAN is well worth the $$ I have talked to a buttload of people that have used it and been VERY satisfied..They'll pay for ANY injury occurred while diving not just getting bent.

I have always told myself that I would get back in if I took a hit. How long did you hang at the springs before you could tell that it was helping? Just wondering ?

I couldn't really tell if I had done any good until the next day. The area had been really sore for 5-8 days and continued to be sore on the ride home. The next day however, it felt much much better. I think I stayed down at the springs for about an hour and 45 minutes, I sat on 'Peace Rock' and sucked on O2 until I felt a little nauseous, then I would switch over to my back gas for 5 minutes, then back to the O2. I sucked 3 AL30's almost dry in that time. It was really boring. Bring a magazine or something if you ever have to recompress yourself in an environment like that.

threw-er-back: I still have no reservations about going deep, just make sure you have the gas to do you deco. I really enjoy deeper diving, the bottom is so much more pristine, the water tends to be clearer, and of course there's lots more (dumb) fish. I also enjoy pushing myself, because I feel like I learn and develop that way.

Thanks for sharing your story and glad you turned out alright.:smthumbup:
In water recompression is a pretty controversial subject but its something that should be seriously considered if the proper equipment is available and those doing it are properly educated in the risks.IMHO

IWR in Tommy's situation is what was called for.He just did it a little late:p.

The group he hangs with are the toughest group of spearfishermen I have ever met,not to mention the best.It is world of difference from amatuer to professional.

Glad to hear you're doing OK Tommy. Be careful, I'd hate to see you end up a freediver due too many DCS hits. Having a little trouble getting rid of the mental picture of you in a banana hammock debating the finer points of euro gun shaft lengths.

Thanks for the kind words guys, you too Tony. :whip:

I forget to mention a pretty important tidbit of information about this. When I got bent the 2nd time, I had been removed from the chamber for about 7-10 days and gotten bent on my very next dive. I wanted make sure everyone knew, that dive was around 130fsw and I did not get into any mandatory decompression. On top of a very slow ascent, I did about 5 extra minutes of deco at 15-20 feet. As soon as I went from 5 fsw to the surface, I felt the pain instantly flare up in the uninjured shoulder. I told the skipper and he gave me the 02 which I used for about 20 minutes, but it didn't help. So I had to do the entire opening lobster trip with a hateful pinging shoulder :mad: :slap: It was after that trip that I went to the springs.

I thought it was important to mention that b/c it illustrates that when you're bent, there really needs to be an extended window before you dive again. I originally didn't feel that way because the chamber got my shoulder literally feeling 100% after the 2nd treatment.

Griswold: I dive the b-day suit under my wetsuit only. No banana hammock here, if seeing man-schlong offends you, look away. :eek: :corkysm60: I'd like to have a good excuse to get into freediving.

How long are you out of diving for now, after your 2nd hit?
I attended a "diving doctors" seminar in the islands many years ago, and it was noted that repeat bends patients needed less exposure to become symptamatic.

Thanks for the kind words guys, you too Tony. :whip:

I forget to mention a pretty important tidbit of information about this. When I got bent the 2nd time, I had been removed from the chamber for about 7-10 days and gotten bent on my very next dive. I wanted make sure everyone knew, that dive was around 130fsw and I did not get into any mandatory decompression. On top of a very slow ascent, I did about 5 extra minutes of deco at 15-20 feet. As soon as I went from 5 fsw to the surface, I felt the pain instantly flare up in the uninjured shoulder. I told the skipper and he gave me the 02 which I used for about 20 minutes, but it didn't help. So I had to do the entire opening lobster trip with a hateful pinging shoulder :mad: :slap: It was after that trip that I went to the springs.

I thought it was important to mention that b/c it illustrates that when you're bent, there really needs to be an extended window before you dive again. I originally didn't feel that way because the chamber got my shoulder literally feeling 100% after the 2nd treatment.


How bad were you bent the 1st time?

Were you cleared to dive that deep and that soon?

How bad were you bent the 1st time?

Were you cleared to dive that deep and that soon?

It wasn't too bad. Right shoulder hit, constant ping pain, loss of some strength. Like when I would pick up a gallon of milk, my hand would shake and I could barely lift it. Unloading the boat with 4000ish pounds of fish was a BYATCH!! Swabbin' the deck was no walk in the park either.

No I was not cleared to dive. I was told not to go back in the water for 6 weeks, which would effectively make me miss all of August, and the 1st 3-4 commercial trips of bug season. I just couldn't miss it, the money is too good, the diving was superb, etc. That 1st trip was pretty epic.

Captain Gene: I've been diving non-stop ever since the chamber trip. Those 7-10 days were the only layoff from diving I've had since May.

How long was it before you dove again? And how was it? Any ill effects? Did all your symptoms go away? Are you diving regularly again? I have had some of those "might be sprained" or "did I lift tanks wrong?" "Why is that numb?" They went away, and they could have been from over doing something, as they arent real apparant right away. Maybe we could learn from you.

I want to make one very important point about in water recompression. Some may say it is too risky, some(like me) can say it has saved their ass, but whatever you think about it,..........MAKE SURE YOU GO IN WITH A BUDDY!!

I had complete paralysis of my upper left quadrant after a dive, and in water recompression saved my ass. I couldn't even put my gear on without help, so I made sure a buddy came down with me. We were the only two people on the boat, so I instructed him to tie off a line to the cleat, and we both went down, at 5 min @ 30ft, I could wiggle my fingers again, 10min, move my arm. 30min later, I was in the boat, on 02, driving home.

How long was it before you dove again? And how was it? Any ill effects? Did all your symptoms go away? Are you diving regularly again? I have had some of those "might be sprained" or "did I lift tanks wrong?" "Why is that numb?" They went away, and they could have been from over doing something, as they arent real apparant right away. Maybe we could learn from you.

I'll try to answer these questions in the order they were asked.

I dove after the first treatment, 7-10 days. After the 2nd treatment in the springs, I dove the next day. The diving was fine, there was no impairment in any way.

The only permanent ill effect is sporadic mild pain in my left shoulder (every 3 days or so, it'll hurt for a minute. It's a quite ignorable pain). No loss of strength.

As far as numbness/itching goes. That's sounds like skin bends. Grab the pony bottle for 10 minutes and that should go away.


Fishhunta: Dude, that's a scary story. There's a guy on our sister boat that has had two episodes like that. The last time they said he got out of the water and couldn't even speak/stand up, slurred speech and falling all over the place. They tried to dress him in his gear sort of, and pushed him overboard. They said he was fine after 10-20 minutes. The best part of it, after he got back in the boat, after this scary ass experience, the first words out of his mouth were, "Sigh..... I think I'll be ok to dive tommorrow." :redcard: Wow, and I thought I was nuts.

I'm totally with you on the buddy. When I went to the springs, that was why I brought my girlfriend with me. When I did some IWR on the boat, she went with me too. I'm not real comfortable past 30fsw with pure o2 by myself. When I have someone with me, I'll goto 50-60fsw. When I was in the chamber they kept me at 60fsw for hours on end, only taking air breaks every 20-30 minutes. I take oxtox alot more seriously then I take DCS. You can treat DCS, even extreme cases. When someone convulses underwater, there isn't much you can do on the spot to treat that.

I want to make one very important point about in water recompression. Some may say it is too risky, some(like me) can say it has saved their ass, but whatever you think about it,..........MAKE SURE YOU GO IN WITH A BUDDY!!.


Roger that Paul! I have witnessed first hand the near miracle like reversal of DCS symptoms from apparently proper IWR.
Nobody should push their limits thinking that IWR will somehow "fix" you if you take a hit however. Its a dangerous technique and a lot can go wrong that could also result in a persons death or severe injury.

Its a very interesting topic which ive discussed with many people privately and it's unfortunate that its mostly a taboo subject that many do not think should be discussed on the internet.

Its really too bad that none of the instruction agencies teach the theory behind it...

You guys need to understand that Mega is honestly answering questions. DO NOT try this at home. YOU COULD DIE!!!!! That said, thanks for the frank and honest answers in an area that no one wants to go.

Nobody should push their limits thinking that IWR will somehow "fix" you if you take a hit however. Its a dangerous technique and a lot can go wrong that could also result in a persons death or severe injury.


Absolutely. It's not a 'fix' per say, it's really all that's available when you're far offshore. It's not an easy thing to do sometimes either. I've done it in 2-3 knot current, you know, the kind when you're anchored up and it still looks like the boat is in gear. That was a bitch. Goin' Deep was there to see that one. He might be able to add to this, he had some real serious forearm pain one time that he treated in the water. He was in much more pain than I ever was. He did the smart thing and got back in the water, albeit 20 minutes later. He did not violate his Cochran computer either during his episode.

I said after DAN and I sorted out the claim that I'd post up a summary about what happened to me. Here goes, to the best of my memory (it was summertime).

We'd been diving nonstop all summer, and on this particular trip alot of stuff 150+, all on lean nitrox. I dove down, 2nd dive of the day and found lots of nice gags! Shot me a few fish and on the way back to the line, a bunch of nice hogs swam in but I had to go. Doing my hang, I look at the computer and it says I have '6ft ceiling' which translates to about 2-3 more minutes of deco. I abort this remaining deco, and pop to the surface to tell the next diver to get his shit ready. I felt fine at the surface, so I swam over to the boat and just got in. A few minutes later I had some itching and then mild dull pain. I should've gotten back in the water and recompressed myself right then and there, I'd of saved myself alot of trouble. See, on the previous trip I had very similar pain in the other arm, but it went away after about 2-3 days. I chalked it up to the infamous 'spearfishing shoulder' muscle exertion pain. So I kept diving, and diving, and diving and then the pain got so severe that I couldn't lift things with my right arm, so I stopped diving. I figured since the last one went away, this one would too. Nope. 5 days later, I still had non-stop pain and my arm quivered when I would pick up a gallon of milk, let alone my 60lb kid. Called DAN, told them what was up and they sent my to Baptist downtown for chamber ride #1. 7.5 hours, then 2.5 hours the next day. Felt good as new coming out of there, even after 5 days of being bent.
I got lucky.

Well, opening lobster trip was next trip on the commercial boat. This was a trip I'd been looking forward to all year, and I'd be damned if I missed this one. So I went, and got bent again in the other arm on the first dive. I was flabbergasted. So anyway, I finished out an excellent trip with Goin' Deep (wow haven't seen him around since the meat season, that whore) and the skipper and knew I was bent, but not as badly. I knew I couldn't call DAN b/c this happened on the commercial boat and would not be covered by DAN. So I loaded up every pony bottle I could get my hands on with pure 02, took some 32% tanks and loaded up the girlfriend for a little DCS treatment at the springs. I still have some slight issues from this, but I was able to get rid of about 90% of the pain. It comes and goes sometimes, still a whole lot better than it was and alot cheaper than 10k.

Moral of the story: DO ALL YOUR DECO! IF YOU KNOW YOU'RE BENT, GET BACK IN THE WATER AND DON'T ACT LIKE IT'S TOO INCONVENIENT!

DAN paid for the whole claim, which was a little over 10k. The hospital billed me twice for something, and that's the only thing DAN didn't pay, but the hospital hasn't sent me anymore bills about stuff that needs paid. I hope that charge goes away, it was for like 943.00 for checking into the emergency room (which I didn't do the 2nd day, I had an appointment). DAN didn't give me any shit about paying the claim, they paid when they said they would, etc. I was quite happy to see it go so smoothly, some of the stories I've read on here made me seriously doubt DAN insurance. From the mouth of a 5 year preferrred member, it's worth it. I've paid 500$ for my 5 years of DAN coverage and my chamber ride was over 10K. Awesome value IMO.


You guys need to understand that Mega is honestly answering questions. DO NOT try this at home. YOU COULD DIE!!!!! That said, thanks for the frank and honest answers in an area that no one wants to go.


Absolutely. It's not a 'fix' per say, it's really all that's available when you're far offshore. It's not an easy thing to do sometimes either. I've done it in 2-3 knot current, you know, the kind when you're anchored up and it still looks like the boat is in gear. That was a bitch. Goin' Deep was there to see that one. He might be able to add to this, he had some real serious forearm pain one time that he treated in the water. He was in much more pain than I ever was. He did the smart thing and got back in the water, albeit 20 minutes later. He did not violate his Cochran computer either during his episode.



You blow off some deco, get bent you do a chamber ride, you say you weren't bent that bad, but you were bent bad enough to do a chamber ride.

Then You do a 130' dive 7-10 days after your chamber ride, you are told not to dive for 6 weeks, yet you ignored the Doctors advice.

Did I read your post correctly that you finished the dive trip knowing you were now bent in the other arm?

Why didn't the Captain of the boat call the USCG to get you immediate medical treatment? Oh that is right, you didn't want to pay for it yourself.:slap:

You do in water re compression not because you are way offshore, but because you are on a commercial boat and DAN won't cover you while doing commercial diving.

You said that you loaded up a bunch of 02 and went to the springs, does this mean you even delayed IWR longer by leaving the boat to go to the springs?

I am surprised DAN paid any of your claims as both times you were bent you were on a commercial boat.

Apparently getting bent and doing IWR is standard operating procedure for you and some of your dive buddies based on this post.

I gotta believe that 5 minutes routine hang time with 100% O2 at 15-20fsw between dives would have avoided these hits. Very cheap insurance.

Thanks for sharing your story Megabeast.

You blow off some deco, get bent you do a chamber ride, you say you weren't bent that bad, but you were bent bad enough to do a chamber ride.

Then You do a 130' dive 7-10 days after your chamber ride, you are told not to dive for 6 weeks, yet you ignored the Doctors advice.

Did I read your post correctly that you finished the dive trip knowing you were now bent in the other arm?

Why didn't the Captain of the boat call the USCG to get you immediate medical treatment? Oh that is right, you didn't want to pay for it yourself.:slap:

You do in water re compression not because you are way offshore, but because you are on a commercial boat and DAN won't cover you while doing commercial diving.

You said that you loaded up a bunch of 02 and went to the springs, does this mean you even delayed IWR longer by leaving the boat to go to the springs?

Apparently getting bent and doing IWR is standard operating procedure for you and some of your dive buddies based on this post.

Bret I was bent bad enough for the first chamber ride b/c the pain would not subside. True it wasn't that bad, I can take a pretty fair amount of pain. However, when I'm losing my strength, and I struggle to pick up my son (something that almost brought tears to my eyes, and was really the straw that broke the camels back) that is when I knew it had to be treated.

Bret before either of these bubbles were treated, I had lived with them for 5-7 days both times. Big long delays. :awink:

Why didn't the skipper call the coast guard over a mild shoulder hit, because that's overkill IMO. That's like getting a morphine shot for your scraped knee. I also think that a chopper ride for a mild shoulder hit is a waste of USCG resources, like when someone is seasick and wants the USCG to bring them home. Yes I dove the rest of the trip with the shoulder ping. I probably did 4-5 dives a day on it for 5 days, it's my f-ing job.

As far as IWR being standard procedure, it has a pretty darn good track record from what my eyes have seen. Hell, from what I've seen it's about 80% effective at making mild/medium hits disappear. When someone gets in the boat talking about pain somewhere, we tell them 'we would get back in the water if it was us' but it is ultimately the decision of the patient. When I was bent the first time, they told me to get back in the water AND I DIDN'T LISTEN AND I PAID FOR IT. Another guy recently, took a hit in the shoulder blade, we knew for sure he had a mild hit and we implored him to get back in the water. Nope, wouldn't listen, just like me. So after we got back, he got some O2 and drove his jetski (with tank on back) out to a bridge and dove a bridge piling in the St. Johns river to IWR himself. It worked, and he'd been hit for 3-4 days and had severe loss of strength, much worse than I.

For the record Bret, I haven't had so much as a tingle since I fixed the last hit. I take real good care of myself now, control my underwater greed and take much more preventative measures.

Mobile Diver: Exactly!!

Marcus: You're very welcome.

Bret I was bent bad enough for the first chamber ride b/c the pain would not subside. True it wasn't that bad, I can take a pretty fair amount of pain. However, when I'm losing my strength, and I struggle to pick up my son (something that almost brought tears to my eyes, and was really the straw that broke the camels back) that is when I knew it had to be treated.

Bret before either of these bubbles were treated, I had lived with them for 5-7 days both times. Big long delays. :awink:

Why didn't the skipper call the coast guard over a mild shoulder hit, because that's overkill IMO. That's like getting a morphine shot for your scraped knee. I also think that a chopper ride for a mild shoulder hit is a waste of USCG resources, like when someone is seasick and wants the USCG to bring them home. Yes I dove the rest of the trip with the shoulder ping. I probably did 4-5 dives a day on it for 5 days, it's my f-ing job.

As far as IWR being standard procedure, it has a pretty darn good track record from what my eyes have seen. Hell, from what I've seen it's about 80% effective at making mild/medium hits disappear. When someone gets in the boat talking about pain somewhere, we tell them 'we would get back in the water if it was us' but it is ultimately the decision of the patient. When I was bent the first time, they told me to get back in the water AND I DIDN'T LISTEN AND I PAID FOR IT. Another guy recently, took a hit in the shoulder blade, we knew for sure he had a mild hit and we implored him to get back in the water. Nope, wouldn't listen, just like me. So after we got back, he got some O2 and drove his jetski (with tank on back) out to a bridge and dove a bridge piling in the St. Johns river to IWR himself. It worked, and he'd been hit for 3-4 days and had severe loss of strength, much worse than I.

For the record Bret, I haven't had so much as a tingle since I fixed the last hit. I take real good care of myself now, control my underwater greed and take much more preventative measures.

Mobile Diver: Exactly!!

Marcus: You're very welcome.

That is strange, because here is what you said in your 1st post in this thread.


Well, opening lobster trip was next trip on the commercial boat. This was a trip I'd been looking forward to all year, and I'd be damned if I missed this one. So I went, and got bent again in the other arm on the first dive. I was flabbergasted. So anyway, I finished out an excellent trip with Goin' Deep (wow haven't seen him around since the meat season, that whore) and the skipper and knew I was bent, but not as badly. I knew I couldn't call DAN b/c this happened on the commercial boat and would not be covered by DAN. So I loaded up every pony bottle I could get my hands on with pure 02, took some 32% tanks and loaded up the girlfriend for a little DCS treatment at the springs. I still have some slight issues from this, but I was able to get rid of about 90% of the pain. It comes and goes sometimes, still a whole lot better than it was and alot cheaper than 10k.

DCS is pretty hard to avoid in the setting these boys dive.3-4 dives per day, working,often in current,5-7 days in a row and up to 30 trips per year.
Do the math,that's a lot of exposure to a lot of factors than a rec guy would normally face in several years and several they would never face.

Tommy fessed up to "greed"he didn't mention how much weight he's lost and how it changed his habits in order to do it safer.

We have all lost friends who only made 1 mistake at the wrong time.

That is strange, because here is what you said in your 1st post in this thread.

I was referring to anything symptomatic right after diving, I should've been more clear. Now that you mention it (and I thought further about it), I don't seem to have that every-so-often-pain when I'm on the water working/diving. I only get it on land.

Another thought along those lines is this: Everytime I have pain in my arm, I blame it on the DCS hits, and I seriously doubt they are the cause of every upper arm pain I get. I use my upper arms all the time, whether I'm working or playing, they get alot of use. Picking up my 60+ lb 5 year old and throwing him all over the house could cause arm cramping, lifting heavy objects, throwing the football around the yard, etc. Then on the boat they get mucho work between diving/bandit fishing.

The thing is, I don't have any way to differentiate if it's muscle cramping, muscle spasming, or my old friend Mr. Bubble roaming around my arm. I just always chalk it up to the dive injury. That's probably not accurate, but I have no way of really knowing. It's all the same dull ache.

Thanks for the kind words Tony. I'm sharing this so that we can all learn from my mistakes/stubborness. If my posting this keeps one person from going to the chamber, or helps a person recognize something happening and take preventive measures before an accident happens, then it was totally worth it. I can take the heat for people telling my I did the wrong thing(s), that much is obvious.

The thing is, I don't have any way to differentiate if it's muscle cramping, muscle spasming, or my old friend Mr. Bubble roaming around my arm. I just always chalk it up to the dive injury. That's probably not accurate, but I have no way of really knowing. It's all the same dull ache.


The bubbles themselves are long gone, but some of your pain could be leftover nerve irritation from the DCS.

This is a great thread for educating divers. Thanks so much for starting it!!

"Thanks for the kind words Tony. I'm sharing this so that we can all learn from my mistakes/stubborness. If my posting this keeps one person from going to the chamber, or helps a person recognize something happening and take preventive measures before an accident happens, then it was totally worth it. I can take the heat for people telling my I did the wrong thing(s), that much is obvious."

Thanks for posting this. I realize you're a comercial guy and your risks are much greater! I think most everyone else realizes it also. People have to realize that there are people like you out there doing exaclty what you are posting. I want to hear about it! Thanks again! I am not going to go an do what you do just because I read it here. But I'm wondering what gas are you breathing when you do these IWCs out there, like after coming up with a arm pain. Are you going on 100% to 20 or 60 ft? Or are you just going to 50ft(or ?) on Nitrox and coming up real slow or ?. I'm just curious what your typical IWC gas and depths consists of.
A few years ago, I had a mild left arm shoulder pain for a couple months, dove a bunch and no changes. I ignored it, as it wasn't bad and I guess I was in denial (or maybe I was just clueless/ I'm still not sure which it was). Then, one day, I took a minor hit after a regular no deco dive(I never deco dive). I got vertigo(felt like I was spinning for about 30 seconds) at 20 ft, then I felt nausiated after surfacing, and for the rest of that day. Then I had a screwed up ear and felt semi nausiated for a couple months. I finally called DAN for a ear doc, and then was diagnosed with DCS. I thought it was a ear issue the entire time. And, it somewhat was a ear issue, as it was inner ear DCS. I took 6 months off from diving and changed a few proceedures since then, and have had zero issues since.
DAN payed for everything except a hundred bucks to one doc. They may have even payed for that if I were persistant enough. I went to more than one doc, and DAN was not excited about paying for the same routine initial ear testing for each of these docs was the issue, if I remember correct. Anyway, I just payed the doc one day since they were getting close to the collection agency mode. It was only like $90 that everyone was pissing about!
My situation might have easily been resolved by breathing 100% o2 on the boat. And my symptom, once up top, was nothing more then feeling seasick on a calm day. Probably also have easily been resolved by jumping in and going down to 50 ft and coming up real slow on regular old Nitrox. I now have 100% O2 on board. I still have no idea if I would try IWC or not. I personally plan to never be in that situation again. But you never know!

Just thinking out loud: This idea of doing 100% at 15-20 ft for like 5 minutes between each and every dive to be safe, might actually push you much closer to your daily O2 exposure limit much quicker? It is stated that doing this makes you feel so much better etc... But I would fear it might be a idea that increases risk of O2 tox on the next dive? I know this is a entire discussion in itself. Just a thought! I guess deco divers push this daily exposure limit? I don't personally like the idea of pushing that daily O2 exposure limit though.

Im learning alot from this thread...I dont dive commerically but I know my next investment is going to be a pony bottle with a reg....

Im still fuzzy about a few things and how everything works.

Im curious how exactly you got the bends. did you not do a safety stop on the way up? or did you stay down to long at a certain depth with the wrong nitrox mix?

Grin: When on the boat and nowhere else to go, I'll take pure O2 in a 30cuft pony down to 50-60ft to get some decenty compression on the bubble (with a reserve regular tank of lean nitrox on also, 24-27% usually) and begin to slowly ascend, stopping at 20ft for a long time. If I get nausea symptoms, I get on the lean nitrox until they subside, then back on regular O2. I'll stay down until I suck the pony bottle dry, then get back in the boat. If that isn't enough to get rid of the pain then I have a more serious issue that needs medical attention.

Wicked: I got bent by shaving 3 minutes off a 10-15ish minute mandatory deco stop, on a 160ish ft dive, diving lean nitrox around 25%. Other contributing factors were residual nitrogen from the day before, residual nitrgoen from the 1st dive (got bent on dive 2). The third and final contributing factor was feeling invulnerable/too confident.

Where do you get O2 hang bottles from? I've got a 30cf pony I could get O2 cleaned- where do you get the O2 from?

Where do you get O2 hang bottles from? I've got a 30cf pony I could get O2 cleaned- where do you get the O2 from?

We get them from the local gas distributor, Praxair.

Praxair is the same company that ships the Air Force its Liquid Oxygen (LOX) that the pilots use to breaths at high altitude.

Im still learning things and I got the general idea of the exact effects and theroy's on how the bends comes around. I plan on staying away from that stuff as much as possible. Im all about being safe in such an easy place to forget how dangerous it can really be.

WOW.. thats all i have to say...


A little background history of myself.

i am a navy diver. i have dove well past 200 FSW. surface supplied, rebreathers, chamber "rides", sur "D" O2 dives. just about every type of diving, I have done. So I know what i am talking about.

so here it goes.. DCS has two types type 1 and 2. YOU had type one. they did a treatment table 5 on you with some extensions. lucky you were smart enough the first time to call DAN and let them know you F'ed yourself.

the second time though i would say you were wrong. inwater recompression is not only dangerous but stupid. for one you had no idea what the hell you were doing.

What would you have done if you had taken an O2 hit at 60 FSW or however deep you were.

You wouldnt have done anything because you would be unconscious and dead within a few minutes.


You're lucky you didnt AGE yourself.

simple advice stay within your limits and dont try and fix yourself with what you think will work. I have had many friends die from being bent. and have been the inside tender to a few civilians that waited 2 or 3 weeks to come in and get treated, 1 out of 3 isn't bad but when your talking about lives they are not stats i am proud of.. Getting bent and not seeking help WILL kill you, maybe not today or tomorrow but that bubble will go to your heart or head sooner or later.

dive safe, and have fun.

-scotty

OK, First you all are going to get some inexperienced diver killed.

You dont understand a thing about decompression, re-compression, DSC, or any other diver related injury. trail and error is not going to help.

There is no ..." Oh i was only bent a little" You were bent! There is no just a little or not much. You were in serious danger. more than you think. now you have PERMANENT nerve damage. Im sure if i did a neuro on you today, you will still need to be re-compressed.

Advice, go take another chamber ride.
And you're lucky at a civilian chamber here in hawaii it's around 30k for a chamber ride. which doesnt include the helicopter ride from another island.

You guys are not even considering the partial pressure of O2 at 60 feetor at 50 feet or at 40 feet and so on.
You have no idea about pulmonary O2 tox. (oxygen toxicity)

Breathing 100% O2 under pressure should only be done by persons with a certified professional experienced in diving medicine.

***What would your girlfriend have done if you took an O2 hit underwater. She would have watched you die.


You guys dont know a thing about O2 hits. They will kill you.
Omitting decompression WILL seriously hurt you if not kill you.
Numbness/itching is NOT skin bends. there is no such thing as skin bends. numbness/itching is a symptom of AGE (arterial gas embolism)
which is the most serious type of diving related injury.

It means a bubble is in you somewhere and wasn't "crushed" properly while off gassing (decompression).

The reason instructional diving classes don't teach this is because is it a danger to your well-being. It is not safe. Its been proven to kill.

We(navy divers) do inwater decompression before we come up and over and into the chamber (surface decompression dive) because it gives time for proper off gassing. then we spend the rest of our decompression in the chamber.

You wanna know why. because inwater decompression is dangerous, and inwater re-compression is just stupid. so many factors you must consider, getting cold is the biggest, staying hydrated, and so on. doing your own re-compression is asking for a toe tag.

DCS doesn't go away over time and YES if not treated at the minimum you will have nerve damage. At the most it will cost you your life.

If you would like me to explain it i will.
I am an the person that tests the limits on your decompression tables. I am paid by the navy to dive. I think that should be enough for you to understand that I know what I am talking about, and that you should listen.

and if you do a chamber "ride" we recommend 30 days before diving. YOU waited a week. I have no pity for you. Being stupid will get you killed.

I'm out. if you want to read about treatment tables and symptoms of DCS, AGE, and other pulmonary over inflation syndromes, GOOGLE U.S. Navy Dive Manual.
********This is a serious subject not to be taken lightly.

I may sound like over kill but you guys are treading somewhere you shouldn't.

Thanks for the reminder, it will help some of those who don't know the things to which you refer.

In this case, the diver in question is a commercial diver and acutely aware of the risks. I don't believe he's advocating IWR for everyone- just gave his story. Everyone who took a dive certification has been taught that IWR is not a good thing.

If you're diving seriously, or not, dive insurance is a smart thing- and it is very comforting to know that all you need to do is make a phone call to get expert advice and schedule a chamber ride.

I do take exception to 'DCS is DCS!'- there are certainly different severities of DCS hits. I participate in decompression studies, and to be honest- they're trying to bend us. But, they don't abort a 'dive' unless the DCS symptoms are dangerous. Skin itching, mild pains are signs of microbubbles, but not out of the ordinary. Of course, in these studies- the chambers are right there. More serious hits shut down the experiment right then.

The lessons I've taken from these stories is to never blow a deco stop; extend my safety stops; do both deco *and* safety stops if I can, call the DAN line if I suspect a DCS, and finally, I'm going to set up an O2 bottle for myself.

Ballsdeep, Thanks for the reply I'm sure every one here would like to here more from someone with your experience.

But I have to ask, You have a serious case of DSC and your 90+ miles offshore in a 10 MPH boat and looking @ 3-5 hours to get to a chamber via. a USCG helicopter. Do you lay flat on the boat & suck O2 or get back in the water?

I ask because this is the scenario that many of us face.

Follow the manual of course.

personally, depending on my symptoms, due to my understanding from diver related injuries and there causes it would have to be a case by case basis.

Lets take the guy that started this thread for example, if it were me i would have called the coast guard or depending where i was i would call my command because we have a chamber on site and we have a bends team that can be there within half an hour. type 1 dcs is painful but it wont kill you within an hour or two or three. (dont quote me please! just from my experience, that it my opinion) so you have time to call and get help. i have treated guys that have waited weeks until they couldnt pick there arm up to come in.

type 2 is different, it occurs usually in the trunk area. take a tshirt for example if you have dull pain within that area it is usually type two, which is more serious. call coast guard and have a life flight come out to your position. you have time but the faster the better. IWR could help but you risk taking an O2 hit and unconsciousness and so many other things. TO ME IT"S NOT WORTH THE RISK. The only time i would ever do in water re compression is if i were diving surface supplied with a hard hat, and i had a qualified inside tender next to me in the water watching me. this way i have every one on topside monitoring my breathing mix me depth and comms between myself and them and myself and the diver next to me.

And that would only be if it were asymptomatic omitted decompression. Which means i could be bent because i didnt off gas properly, but im not showing any symptoms.

treatment tables last hours, some last days. spending 10 minutes at 60 feet sucking O2 is not going to do a damn thing for you. it is only going to endanger yourself more than you already have.



AGE. if you surface and go unconscious, you are in serious trouble, or if you are numb all over can;t feel your legs or arms, or are numb anywhere it could be AGE. you need recompression treatment immediately. at that point if you are miles off shore, you are in trouble. call coast guard and well the action you take after that is your action. If you opt to hop in the water, it could very well safe your life or it could very well end it just as fast. Its hard to say what I would do.

If you dont know what your doing, dont make things worse by trying something you are not trained to do. call for help and make ever effort to avoid this by planning your dive ahead of time and diving within your limits. dont over do it just because the money is good or the diving is outstanding.

and take the time to find out where a chamber is located and the right numbers to call incase you did have something happen to you or your dive buddy.

civilian chamber "ride" upwards of 30grand
navy chamber "ride" a few cases of beer (not to mention we re more qualified than any doctor at these civilian chambers, we do this for a living, they do it to get pain)

make friends with the right people is my advice to you guys.

Good thing you joined this forum Scotty, or a lot of people on here wouldn't understand the differences between DCS I, II, or AGEs.

Good thing you joined this forum Scotty, or a lot of people on here wouldn't understand the differences between DCS I, II, or AGEs.

What is age?:awink:

In case you missed reading his posts in your rush to pass judgement he said the 60' dives cleared up his symptoms.And that several other divers he knows personally were asympomatic after similar treatments.
We are often a days steaming to get in range to even call the USCG.And those fish aren't going to shoot themselves.

The range of experience on these boats ranges from a few years to almost 50 yrs of continously making a living at commercial spearfishing with most in the 20 yrs of experience range.And most have had to IWR at some point.Averaging the 250 to 500 dives a year mostly deeper than 120' exposes you to a lot of variables not covered in the manual.

pass judgment?

sorry for explaining the mere fact that trying to re compress yourself in water is not only dangerous but stupid. especially when you dont know what your doing.

and experience doesnt mean a thing when you have no clue what your doing. its like the blind leading the blind.

60' sucking O2 is way different in a chamber then it is water. exposure limits are different for a "dry" (chamber) "wet" inwater diver.

bottom line call the coast guard. it doesnt mattter your situation. if you are bent getting back in the water is only risking more than you already have risked by diving beyond your limits, omitting decompression, or whatever the hell you are doing to get bent.


especially over fish? come on dude. there is no procedure for what you guys are doing to yourselves anywhere.

im done with this thread. take my advice for what its worth. hopefully you will call the coast guard when you get bent instead of guessing/using your "experience" to treat yourself.

Scotty?

WOW.. thats all i have to say...


A little background history of myself.

i am a navy diver. i have dove well past 200 FSW. surface supplied, rebreathers, chamber "rides", sur "D" O2 dives. just about every type of diving, I have done. So I know what i am talking about.

so here it goes.. DCS has two types type 1 and 2. YOU had type one. they did a treatment table 5 on you with some extensions. lucky you were smart enough the first time to call DAN and let them know you F'ed yourself.

the second time though i would say you were wrong. inwater decompression is not only dangerous but stupid. for one you had no idea what the hell you were doing.

What would you have done if you had taken an O2 hit at 60 FSW or however deep you were.

You wouldnt have done anything because you would be unconscious and dead within a few minutes.


You're lucky you didnt AGE yourself.

simple advice stay within your limits and dont try and fix yourself with what you think will work. I have had many friends die from being bent. and have been the inside tender to a few civilians that waited 2 or 3 weeks to come in and get treated, 1 out of 3 isn't bad but when your talking about lives they are not stats i am proud of.. Getting bent and not seeking help WILL kill you, maybe not today or tomorrow but that bubble will go to your heart or head sooner or later.

dive safe, and have fun.

-scotty



:whistle:

http://www.bishopmuseum.org/research/treks/palautz97/iwr.html

https://www.daneurope.org/eng/iwr.pdf
http://www.divepros.org/forums//showthread.php?t=2

Hmmmmm I guess there is a procedure.......

I read the first link- wow. This one really caught my eye:

"Four fisherman divers were working in pairs at a site about 165 to 180 feet deep. Each pair alternated diving and made two dives at the site. Both divers of the second pair rapidly developed signs and symptoms of severe CNS decompression sickness upon surfacing from their second dive. The boat pilot and the other diver decided to take both victims to the U.S. Navy recompression chamber and headed for the dock some 30 minutes away [the recompression chamber was an additional hour away from the dock]. During transport, one victim refused to go and elected to undergo in-water recompression, breathing air. He took two full scuba tanks, told the boat driver to come back and pick him up after transporting the other bends victim to the chamber, and rolled over the side of the boat down to a depth of 30 to 40 feet. The boat crew returned after 2 hours to pick him up. He was asymptomatic and apparently cured of the disease. The other diver died of severe decompression sickness in the Med-Evac helicopter en route to the recompression chamber."

Note: I believe that going to the chamber is the best solution if possible, the guy could have just as easily died going underwater, both divers perishing as reported in another case

I bow out to much greater knowledge,obviously what you know is far more relevant than what we have seen.
In the rush to seem intelligient and informed you ignored the fact that we are often out of radio range of the USCG and a helo is often not immediately available.And the fact that despite IWR being dangerous and stupid it was effective in each case.

That article is well known as an excellent discussion of IWR. Thanks for posting current links to it.

my "intelligence" is a matter of years and years of research at NEDU (navy experimental diving unit). divers and scientist spend many man hours writing and rewriting decompression tables. we (divers) spend many hours getting bent on purpose and then they (the scientists) try to fix us. so my intelligence puts me in a position to tell you the physics to why in water recompression in dangerous. here is some "knowledge" for you....

60' in water on 02 2.8 ata pp of 02
max limit before cns 02 toxicity can occur 1.3 ata pp of 02.

physics doesnt lie.

at 60' you are exposing yourself to twice of the max amount.

yeah someone dropped in and put up some not so current(1970s, 1980s) articles on IWR. and it said in the first one it is highly discouraged by almost everyone.


I could go on and on about this, but i will cut it short.

I'm not pulling this stuff outta my ass. I came across this thread by mistake. I read it and well thought that it was not safe for other divers to be reading a mans story about how he treated himself and was telling other people on this forum that if you get bent, to drop down to 60' with some pony bottles of 02 and hang out for awhile.

I stepped in handed out some info, and then gave my opinion on what you should do if you get bent.

CNS 02 toxicity is no joke, it will kill you faster than DCS.
Breathing 02 at depth (inwater) will surely enough increase your chances of getting CNS 02 toxicity.

The fact of the water is we dont practice it, because it is dangerous and to many factors are unknown when trying to re-compress yourself in water.

but you're right, i didnt consider the fact that your diving 100s of miles offshore, with no radio contact. the only thing i can say to that is dont omit decompression, and you shouldnt have a problem.

just my thoughts.....

one question though, before i go. why did you say that i was trying to seem intelligent? Because I know what I am talking about and it is backed by the laws of physics and every other professional diving organization on the face of this planet, and you are basing yours on what you have seen? just curious...

on yeah i forgot something.... it may have helped in a few cases but what about the cases it didn't? i know for a fact in guam and here in hawaii people try to do what you guys are doing all the time... they end up dying in the water, or they come to us, and die in our chamber or by an act of God himself live. Food for thought.....

I myself have seen many many cases of DCS, AGE, subcutaneous emphysema. No one i know could ever opt for inwater re compression. NO ONE. Not to toot my own horn, but I live diving medicine everyday. You may see it once in awhile, I see it everyday.

I hope that if you do chose to treat yourself you are smart about it. full face mask, so when you take an 02 hit the reg doesnt fall out of your mouth and you drown, safety diver, maybe some diving medicine knowledge so you know how much 02 at depth you can breath before taking an air break.. goodluck

"At present, we are aware of about twenty additional cases of attempted IWR which have not previously been reported in literature. Of these, two resulted in the death of the attempting divers (both divers were together at the time - see Case #3 below), and one resulted in an apparent aggravation of the conditions (i.e. turning a sore shoulder into permanent quadriplegia - see Case #10 below). Another case, for which we do not have details, involved a diver who apparently worsened his condition with IWR, but eventually recovered after proper treatment in a recompression chamber facility."


"Twelve experienced divers conducted an 18-minute dive on a wreck in about 215 feet. They surfaced following 38 minutes of air decompression, at which time two of the divers reported "incomplete decompression". These two divers obtained additional supplies of air and returned to the water in an apparent effort to treat DCS symptoms. They never returned to the boat, and their bodies were recovered two weeks later."

"A young diver experienced pain-only symptoms of DCS after an unknown dive profile. He made three successive attempts at IWR (presumably breathing air), each time worsening his condition. After the third attempt, his condition had degenerated into quadriplegia. Because of transport delays, he did not arrive at a recompression chamber until about three days after the incident. Saturation treatment yielded no improvement in his condition, and he remained permanently paralyzed."

just some cases that IWR doesn't work

60' in water on 02 2.8 ata pp of 02
max limit before cns 02 toxicity can occur 1.3 ata pp of 02.


Somebody call PADI quick! My tables need to be thrown away, it says I should use 1.4 normally, and 1.6 as contingency!


at 60' you are exposing yourself to twice of the max amount.


This has been gone over many times before, it's not simply the PP of 02, it is the time exposure (oxygen clock). Read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_toxicity

We're really glad you're contributing, but hyperbole is going to get shot full of holes.


.. I read it and well thought that it was not safe for other divers to be reading a mans story about how he treated himself and was telling other people on this forum that if you get bent, to drop down to 60' with some pony bottles of 02 and hang out for awhile.



I thought it was pretty well discussed that it was not recommended, and when questioned, he gave a lot more detail, including having another diver with him.



i didnt consider the fact that your diving 100s of miles offshore, with no radio contact. the only thing i can say to that is dont omit decompression, and you shouldnt have a problem.


I really suggest going back and reading that referenced article- especially the case studies. People get bent all the time- following dive tables and computers. Accidents often happen which prevent following dive tables. Equipment fails, which prevents following dive tables. You can't just say 'follow the tables'.





I hope that if you do chose to treat yourself you are smart about it. full face mask, so when you take an 02 hit the reg doesnt fall out of your mouth and you drown, safety diver, maybe some diving medicine knowledge so you know how much 02 at depth you can breath before taking an air break.. goodluck

Excellent advice, as oxygen isn't 'toxic' on its own, it's the CNS convulsions which can kill someone underwater.. by drowning.

Somebody call PADI quick! My tables need to be thrown away, it says I should use 1.4 normally, and 1.6 as contingency!



This has been gone over many times before, it's not simply the PP of 02, it is the time exposure (oxygen clock). Read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_toxicity

We're really glad you're contributing, but hyperbole is going to get shot full of holes.


I thought it was pretty well discussed that it was not recommended, and when questioned, he gave a lot more detail, including having another diver with him.



I really suggest going back and reading that referenced article- especially the case studies. People get bent all the time- following dive tables and computers. Accidents often happen which prevent following dive tables. Equipment fails, which prevents following dive tables. You can't just say 'follow the tables'.




Excellent advice, as oxygen isn't 'toxic' on its own, it's the CNS convulsions which can kill someone underwater.. by drowning.

sorry, you are mis understanding what you are reading.
oxygen can be toxic on its own. hence the term central nervous system oxygen toxicity. at depth oxygen is toxic. when you exceed 1.3 ata of 02 cns 02 toxicity is possible. its for this reason why we dive less oxygen the deeper we go.

you were reading minutes relating to bar. pushing your oxygen exposure limit can result in pulmonary 02 toxicity. burning sensation in the lungs. it is different from cns 02 toxicity because you are breathing 02 at an acceptable level, just breathing it for to long.( level being depth ). such as diving a 100% 02 rig like a Draeger Lar 5.

as to your tables being wrong??? 1.4 -1.6 pp02 it is talking about 21% 02 not 100%. becuase at 60 feet in water on 100% 02 the pp of 02 is 2.8. got it now?

100% 02 not regular air which is 21% 02.

depth + 33 divided by 33.

60 +33 =93 / by 33 =2.81 and 100% 02 is toxic at 2.8

dude, why did you even post something you have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

i guess you didn't read my post that had my back ground information. im about the most knowledgeable person on this site when it comes to diving medicine. im not a hobby lob diver. i know what i am talking about.

next time dont think or type please. you will save me the typing time correcting you.

and NOAA, PADI, NAUI, SSI, and whoever else....it all starts at our tables. being the u.s. navy diving tables.

oh yeah.... he did say he had his girlfriend in the spring didn't he. i already addressed this. what the hell is she going to do. im sure she doesnt know systoms of 02 toxicity. and if he got an 02 hit, what do you think she would have done? freaked out.. prolly. it only helps if you have someone who knows what they are doing with you.

o.k. any body else wanna try. this info i am telling you in written in back and white.

somebody try and shoot some more holes in the laws of physics....any takers.

ok why dont you download revision 5 of the us navy dive manual. everything you want to know is in there. im tired of trying

ANGER ISSUES

balls deep,
thanks for the info. hopefully you'll keep it coming in diving medicine issues even though some people may argue or disagree with you. the rest of us are taking it all in, and it gets me to do more reading and learning.
hopefully, this entire post gets everyone thinking more about safety and to dive a little safer.
i'm a physician, and this interests me greatly. and i have 3 little kids at home, so i dive very conservatively. i don't push the limits like the commercial guys seem to. and like you get paid to do.

how many times have you gotten DCS? was it treated sucessfully every time by recompression? and in my related field, have you guys followed up with xrays or MRIs of your joints and brains to detect any nonsymptomatic damage? i see xrays every so often of divers who have multiple bone infarcts in their longbones, and i wonder if they have chrinic ischemic changes in the brain white matter?

finally, have there been any more recent articles on IWR technique for the guys out of touch with medical help? as a last resort, it seems it may be something they should know how to do safely if it may save a life. assuming they have a full face mask and enough 100% O2 available?

thanks

ballsdeep I know you weren't trying to be a knowitall,I pull chains.

CMAS for the longest times used 2.0 as an upper limit for p02

Yes it is dangerous and I have had 2 buddies die from hi p02 in accidents where the wrong bottle was used at depth.
But the guys I know who IWR'd all lived and were asymptomatic.They also learned not to omit deco and to pad on multi-day trips.And thier experiernces related here gave a lot divers pause to consider thier own deco procedures.

It is called empirical evidence,just as using the USN tables works for young Navy divers it has proved unreliable for use by fatass outta shape civilians.Hence the use of shorter times by modern tables and computers.
Thanx for sticking around.

sorry, you are mis understanding what you are reading.
oxygen can be toxic on its own. hence the term central nervous system oxygen toxicity. at depth oxygen is toxic. when you exceed 1.3 ata of 02 cns 02 toxicity is possible.

I'm sorry, that's like saying drinking causes 'liver toxicity'. Sure it does, and if you keep it up, it will kill you. But oxygen toxicity causes convulsions- not brain stem death, sheesh. The danger of CNS seizures underwater is losing your regulator, not suddenly keeling over dead.

For your edumacashun, here's a list of the effects of oxygen toxicity:

# Muscle twitching and spasm
# nausea and vomiting
# dizziness
# vision (tunnel vision) and hearing difficulties (tinnitus)
# twitching of facial muscles
# irritability, confusion and a sense of impending doom
# trouble breathing, anxiety
# unusual fatigue
# incoordination
# convulsion.

Did you notice DEATH isn't one of them? FWIW, when using oxygen as a treatment for medical conditions, it is done up to 60fsw pressures. Are those doctors trying to kill the patients? They are of course, dry, monitored by staff, etc., but the fact is that when used in a controlled environment, 60fsw is not out of the ordinary.

Just because you're a lab rat, doesn't mean you're a scientist.

In your attempt to convey air PPO2 to 100% PPO2, the only difference is the percentage- nitrox divers know this- which is why your mix determines your MOD. I think you're now starting to get past your area of expertise.

i guess you didn't read my post that had my back ground information. im about the most knowledgeable person on this site when it comes to diving medicine.

Wow, out of the thousands of people on this site, you're the one who knows the most about diving medicine? And how did you determine this?

Again, I'll state, if there's an opportunity for a chamber, I'd take it in an instant before IWR.

toecheese,

i will try and break it down for you as much as possible, sorry for being rude the first time. here it is....

wet diver = 1.3 -1.6 ata 02

dry diver = 2.4 -2.6 ata 02

in a chamber you can withstand a higher ata of 02.

in water that ata drops by nearly half. (ata = atmosphere absolute) for those who dont know.

this is why we go to 60 feet in the chamber and on 02(100% 02). then after a certain amount of time we take an air break then back on 02 then air break, and so on. if 60 isn't showing relief we then got to depth of relieve not to exceed 165'. if going deeper than 60' we go off 02)
I hope this satisfies your liver toxicity analogy. there is a difference in max limits whether dry or wet. hope this helps you better understand what i am talking about.

and there are two types. depth (ata) and exposure limit(being amount of 02 being breathed at a level where cns 02 toxicity is not a problem, i.e. less than 1.3 ata for a wet diver, you can however get pulmonary 02 toxicity from breathing 02 for to long. it can happen in a chamber at depth on surface, basically anywhere. it is a burning sensation in the lungs). they are not related, and are very different.

read your list of symptoms again, all the lesser ones are letting you know that a convulsion is on the way kinda a telltale that if you keep breathing 02 you well get an unexpected 02 hit. none the less your body can skip the lesser symptoms and a convulsion can happen right away

a convulsion can be conscious or unconscious. you reg falling out of your mouth was just the obvious thing that would happen. you could also go into a comma, suffer brain damage, swallow your tongue, and so so and so on. convulsion is just a vague symptom with many factor that contribute after you have a convulsion

***the reason i can say i am the most knowledgeable person on diving medicine is because it is my job. ask the doc that just posted not to long ago. they dont teach this in med school. this field is very small.

if not the most knowledgeable, then i am certainly of the most knowledgeable people on this site, relating to diving medicine.

and in your response to the PP02 matter, i mix gas I have dove to 290' feet on a mk 16 rebreather. i think i know what i am talking about. just like the diving medicine. this is my job. i live this stuff everyday, my knowledge is always being tested, if i dont keep up with it my quals either get revoked or i could end up killing someone. because we do test our limits and we do get hurt, so you (civilians) can have a reasonable table to dive from . we take this seriously because we have too. any professional diver (hard hat) can tell you what i am telling you now. diving medicine and everything else that i have posted in taken into consideration when diving deep. hours of decompression, before you can get to a reason depth to surface decompression. it is all dangerous. guys die all the time.

you dont have to read what i post or take it into consideration. i just hope that if you do read it you get a better understanding that we aren't meant to breath underwater and that every time we do we put ourselves at risk.
************************************************** *************

CHUCKD-

as for me i am an exception to the rule. i have never been bent.


depending on the type of injury, and if re compression is needed the follow up after therapy is done is very extensive. MRI and xrays are just the beginning, blood samples, extensive coordination tests are done, motor skills, reflexes, memory. the list is long. almost every time we do a treatment the person recovers fully. usually after a second or third treatment they experience no symptoms and are fully recovered. on the serious type 2 treatments nerve damage is the most common. i havent been witness to mental retardation, or quadriplegia. paralysis is common but is cured with re compression with minor nerve damage after treatments.

Saturation divers are among the ones that suffer the most. 1000' dives and a month of decompression in a diving bell, does a toll on the human body. they are the ones that get shorter die sooner and usually have most of the problems associated with long term exposure to diving. on a personal note my friend kelley was just medically release from diving duty because of dead spots in white brain matter. he was a deep diver for 4 years.

as for recent articles of IWR i am unsure. we dont have one because when we dive to very deep depths there must be a chamber on site, mostly because we practice surface decompression which is much safer than IWR. i guess this is one of the reasons we have not lost a life in many many years.

thanks for the info.

Balls deep,
Very interesting information. Thanks for your contribution on this very controversial subject.

Wow, that was some good posting while I was offshore.

Balls, thanks for your info. I've been being a good boy and doing all my deco lately, did 4 dives yesterday in 160-170 for 14-20 minutes bottom time each dive (varied decos) and felt great. I don't want to have to break out the pony bottle anymore, it's not a good feeling. It's scary, and it's certainly not a fix-all DCS issues solution, but sometimes dude it's all that's available. I acknowledge that it is very dangerous, it is a roll of the dice. Taking air brakes based on if I start dry heaving or not is stupid and dangerous.

All that said, sometimes it's all that's available. I know you're Navy and you're hardcore and blah blah blah, I think you've tooted that horn 6 times in 6 posts (it's kind of petty and getting old really). If I have the choice to either attempt to address the issue right away in 20 minutes time, or wait 4 hours for the chopper and pay 10-20-30 thousand dollars, dude, that's alot of money, I'm rollin' the dice. I know you disagree, but that's because it's easy for you to disagree because you have a chamber with you everywhere you go. I on the other hand, have a decision to make. There is no decision for you, go right into the chamber, and it's free. That is the difference between you and I, the chamber is not free for me. It also enables you to stand on your high horse and puff your chest out, which makes alot of people miss your very critical and informative message. Lose the bravado, it impresses no one.

Also, I shoot fish for a living so there's this thing called greed, and that is the demon that will get me bent. Keep the greed monster in check, do all the deco, do some extra when the opportunity presents itself.

I'd love to see you come do what I do for a living.

Ohh and for the record, in the springs, my girlfriend had very specific instructions on what to do with me (pretty much the same unconscious diver stuff she learned in her resuce class). If I convulsed, she was to not worry about putting the reg in my mouth, she was just supposed to inflate my bc, get me to the platform in a fashion that was safe for her (ascent rate, stop, etc.) and call for help from that guy Ed that works at the counter. I know for sure, she could handle that. If I drowned, ohh well, it was a risk I took knowing darn well that it could happen. If I got revived, that would be great too.

Excellent(or I should say interesting) thread from all opinions.

I'll never understand why anyone would want to comercial fish or spear for a living. I occassionally dive with a few who do, and I just don't understand why. The list of reasons why is too long to even start. Talk about trying to do life the hard way!

Grin,there are too many reasons to list.But here are a few.
No one dives where we do.
We see ledges and bottom that no one else does.
We get to see meteors,sunrise and sunset and every kind of astronomical event you can imagine with no light pollution.
Shooting fish that would be a once-in-a-lifetime trophy for most people here several times a month.
Being your own boss to certain degree.
Being willing and able to spend quality time with family because it is so rare and precious.
Being able to do what you love and someone is paying me?AYFKM?
Seeing species/hybrids that are unknown as yet.


Getting to eat at Chef Tony's when he is on the boat doesn't hurt either.

A few comments:

Balls Deep's examples of failed IWR involved using air & not O2. Air IWR is pointless without a surface supply because it takes so long.

Downloading the Navy Dive manual is a great idea. In it you will find procedures for IWR.

EVERY breath of O2 you take at depth helps. You are displacing N2 with O2 & blowing N2 off without taking any more in.

All in all a great thread.

Wow, that was some good posting while I was offshore.

Balls, thanks for your info. I've been being a good boy and doing all my deco lately, did 4 dives yesterday in 160-170 for 14-20 minutes bottom time each dive (varied decos) and felt great. I don't want to have to break out the pony bottle anymore, it's not a good feeling. It's scary, and it's certainly not a fix-all DCS issues solution, but sometimes dude it's all that's available. I acknowledge that it is very dangerous, it is a roll of the dice. Taking air brakes based on if I start dry heaving or not is stupid and dangerous.

All that said, sometimes it's all that's available. I know you're Navy and you're hardcore and blah blah blah, I think you've tooted that horn 6 times in 6 posts (it's kind of petty and getting old really). If I have the choice to either attempt to address the issue right away in 20 minutes time, or wait 4 hours for the chopper and pay 10-20-30 thousand dollars, dude, that's alot of money, I'm rollin' the dice. I know you disagree, but that's because it's easy for you to disagree because you have a chamber with you everywhere you go. I on the other hand, have a decision to make. There is no decision for you, go right into the chamber, and it's free. That is the difference between you and I, the chamber is not free for me. It also enables you to stand on your high horse and puff your chest out, which makes alot of people miss your very critical and informative message. Lose the bravado, it impresses no one.

Also, I shoot fish for a living so there's this thing called greed, and that is the demon that will get me bent. Keep the greed monster in check, do all the deco, do some extra when the opportunity presents itself.

I'd love to see you come do what I do for a living.

Ohh and for the record, in the springs, my girlfriend had very specific instructions on what to do with me (pretty much the same unconscious diver stuff she learned in her resuce class). If I convulsed, she was to not worry about putting the reg in my mouth, she was just supposed to inflate my bc, get me to the platform in a fashion that was safe for her (ascent rate, stop, etc.) and call for help from that guy Ed that works at the counter. I know for sure, she could handle that. If I drowned, ohh well, it was a risk I took knowing darn well that it could happen. If I got revived, that would be great too.

I will give you credit where credit is due. If its all you got then its all you got. Then you must roll the dice. But it is easy for me to stand on my high horse and say the correct thing to do because yes chamber rides are free and if we are diving He02 then we do have a chamber on station, and if diving anywhere else there is a chamber close by, That doesn't make the diving i do easy. We get bent all the time, human error, computer error, whatever. Shit happens. The difference between you guys and us guys is the simple fact that we know what to do and how to do it. rolling the dice is a chance your taking, but if other options are available I highly recommend taking them. Or learning a little bit about what you are doing.

With that said My post was more of an informative post. Picking at the points that needed to be addressed for the people that don't have your experience/balls/lack or adequate brain cells/ whatever you want to call it and/or are diving in a fashion where there best bet is to call the coast guard or other help. As for my high horse it had more to do with people posting about other things. not necessary your case. They would post a response to information i gave like i was just pulling it out of my ass. I.E. the PP02 posts. my facts vs. their opinion.

As for doing what you do, ha, I am an avid spearo, i know what its like to have greed. It has cost a friends life (SWB) yet i still do it. You dive to 160 on scuba, I on the other hand freedive. I would love to do what you do. I just have to satisfy my greed on the weekends.

I would like you to fill my shoes for a day, but thanks for "thinking" my job is easy. I didnt say i was hardcore and blah blah blah. I simply said i was a navy diver and I think that validates me as knowing what the hell I am talking about. But if you want to get into the hard core stuff then well I dont think you have ever done a body job from an airplane blowing up in the everglades or a bridge collapsing, boats sinking, jets crashing, pilot recovery, mixed gas diving to 250 + feet, need i say more. Not bone crushing depth all the time, but you get the picture. But no need to get into a debate about what I do, if it were easy everyone would be doing it.

I tried to help. You can take the info and maybe put it to good use or you can do whatever you want to do. Everyone has their own style of diving, what works for you doesn't work for me. Just my 2 cents. Goodluck. If you're ever in hawaii, be sure to let me know. I will keep the chamber ready. just in case.

A few comments:

Balls Deep's examples of failed IWR involved using air & not O2. Air IWR is pointless without a surface supply because it takes so long.

Downloading the Navy Dive manual is a great idea. In it you will find procedures for IWR.

EVERY breath of O2 you take at depth helps. You are displacing N2 with O2 & blowing N2 off without taking any more in.

All in all a great thread.

We have a strict guideline for inwater recompression. I would not use that as a basis for the diving you do. It is in a hard hat and surface supplied. top side has control of your gas mixtures/ depth/ everything else, all you do is breath. I have never seen this done because why waste time in the water(to many factors to consider) when a chamber is much more feasible and safer.

I
I would like you to fill my shoes for a day, but thanks for "thinking" my job is easy. I didnt say i was hardcore and blah blah blah. I simply said i was a navy diver and I think that validates me as knowing what the hell I am talking about. But if you want to get into the hard core stuff then well I dont think you have ever done a body job from an airplane blowing up in the everglades or a bridge collapsing, boats sinking, jets crashing, pilot recovery, mixed gas diving to 250 + feet, need i say more. Not bone crushing depth all the time, but you get the picture. But no need to get into a debate about what I do, if it were easy everyone would be doing it.

I tried to help. You can take the info and maybe put it to good use or you can do whatever you want to do. Everyone has their own style of diving, what works for you doesn't work for me. Just my 2 cents. Goodluck. If you're ever in hawaii, be sure to let me know. I will keep the chamber ready. just in case.

I never said your job was easy. When I used to run Jax Scuba, there was a TowBoat US salvage diver there docked at the marina, and some of the scenarios he alone got in were too hairy for me, even in 20fsw. Zero vis, trying to raise sunken barges in screaming current, ships listing that could fall on you at any time, I can only imagine some of the dive scenarios the navy could throw at you. I got alot of respect for the Navy guys, but when the chest puffing starts, I just turn off to them, ditto for the cave guys too. We all love to learn from people with superior knowledge and experience, but we don't like to hear how we're stupid.

You did help, your brought a different perspective to this discussion and some great data. That's what this post is all about, learning from My Experience with DCS. Thanks for posting. :toast:

I might take a honeymoon to Hawaii in a few years, if I decide to keep her.

I might take a honeymoon to Hawaii in a few years, if I decide to keep her.

:bsflag:Vice versa biatch,vice versa.:bsflag:

This was out of an article posted earlier: http://www.divepros.org/forums//showthread.php?t=2&garpg=3
In-water Recompression as an Emergency Field Treatment of Decompression Illness

"Information on at least 535 cases of attempted IWR has been reported in publications. Summary data from the majority of these attempts are included in Farm et al. (1986), who present the results of their survey of diving fishermen in Hawaii. Of the 527 cases of attempted IWR reported during the survey, 462 (87.7%) involved complete resolution of symptoms. In 51 cases (9.7%), the diver had improved to the point where residual symptoms were mild enough that no further treatment was sought, and symptoms disappeared entirely within a day or two. In only 14 cases (2.7%) did symptoms persist enough after IWR that the diver sought treatment at a recompression facility. None of the divers reported that their symptoms had worsened after IWR. It is also interesting (and somewhat disturbing) to note that none of the divers included in this survey were aware of published methods of IWR (i.e. all were "winging it" - inventing the procedure for themselves as they went along), and all had used only air as a breathing gas."

Well I'll buy you a beer if you make it down here. Then go spearfishing.

I wasn't aware you are a comercial. Yes those are great things, but as I discovered in my short comercial endevor, having a good job and being able to choose my days, outweighed those items by 100 miles. I'll take the 40hr week job with full benefits and 401 k. And when it's nice out, I'll do whatever I want. Carrying a single 50lb bag of ice to the boat will be all the work I do.
Of all you listed this one sounds nice:
"Shooting fish that would be a once-in-a-lifetime trophy for most people here several times a month."

I know a few comercial fisherman and many many charter boat captains. Even the best of the best, running multimillion dollar machines, will state they don't know what else they should/could do and wish they didn't get sucked into the call of the sea early in thier life. It almost happened to me, and I am absolutly thrilled to have avoided making my passion my job.
I guess I just answered my first posts own question:slap:.
There are a few who somehow make it work. But they are both tougher than nails and lucky if they survive it. Me, I will be retired at 55 and be filling my fuel tank with my 401k while watching those stars.

This one I avoid like the plaugue!
"Being able to do what you love and someone is paying me?AYFKM?"
Someday you might agree! I pay full price and wouldn't want it any other way. I found new respect for my day job, that allows me to do whatever I want, about 10 years ago, after seeking what I thought was my dream. Now I am living my modified dream after eliminating that part of making $$ being involved.


Grin,there are too many reasons to list.But here are a few.
No one dives where we do.
We see ledges and bottom that no one else does.
We get to see meteors,sunrise and sunset and every kind of astronomical event you can imagine with no light pollution.

Being your own boss to certain degree.
Being willing and able to spend quality time with family because it is so rare and precious.
Seeing species/hybrids that are unknown as yet.


Getting to eat at Chef Tony's when he is on the boat doesn't hurt either.

Of all you listed this one sounds nice:
"Shooting fish that would be a once-in-a-lifetime trophy for most people here several times a month."



Of the other ones he listed:
We see ledges and bottom that no one else does.
Being willing and able to spend quality time with family because it is so rare and precious.
Being able to do what you love and someone is paying me?AYFKM?

These are ones I hold dearest to my heart.

New spots/Virgin bottom is so exhilarating to dive. Nothing running over a super mark you didn't have, dropping in on it and seeing grouper/snapper dopily swim up to you, and lobsters in every hole/crack. Gets me excited just thinking about it.

I love watching myself develop as a hunter/harvester as much as I love the fishing/diving itself. Heck, one day I might even be able to tote ole' Buckets stringer. :2gunsfiring_v1:

I get to spend lots of time with my son, A LOT of time. It's my reason for living. Alot of people take their work home with them (or their job rings their phone off the hook), when I'm home, my job doesn't in the least bit interfere with my family life when I'm home, except for cleaning gear. It's nice to be able to keep the two so separated.

WTG Joe!! The facts will always trump attitude.:smthumbup:

Not trying to be a dead horse, but here's a great article on why you should use 100% O2 to get rid of nitrogen.

http://www.mindspring.com/~divegeek/why100.htm

In it is a series of pictures of a cat brain that had a nitrogen bubble injected into it. When the cat was put on O2, it *disappeared*. Very cool stuff.

Good post.

Terrific article, Toecheese!!!