Just got off the phone with American Spearit who was at the Gulf Council meeting for a few hours today. He mentioned seeing Ed Walker, Bottom Dweller, Fiz, and Denny of course among others in attendance who hopefully will post their impressions of Day One. His bullet points:

*The meeting is going to be held in the Milan Ballroom of the Radisson. He counted exactly 100 chairs that took up most of the available space in the room. Only 100 chairs? Is this an attempt to force the overflow into the outside hallways to lessen the impact of a packed house?

*The proceedings seem to have gone on in a very disorganized manner with many sidebars and very little regard for a flow of agenda. This is the Federal government....are you surprised?

*More eco-groups representatives present than triggerfish on a hunk of squid (three dozen plus in attendance). There were the obvious stereotypical looking eco-types, but quite a few that are probably hired gun lawyers. All had laptops and were in full carpal tunnel mode furiously pecking away at everything being said. American Spearit reports that very few look like they have ever spent a day of their lives on the Gulf of Mexico and most sport serious "fluorescent tans" :D.

I say when do it college style and see how many people we can fit into the room? Then maybe the fire marshall will chime in and make them reschedule in a larger room! HAHAHAHAH!

There is no more room at the inn. They will squeeze us in, which is fine.
Things are changing here as we speak.
Seems like we might need to make some more noise on AJ.
We will have the latest stuff up tomorrow night, as I am concerned that there could be other changes.
Thus goes the regulatory flow.

Bum rush the room. Keep the eco - guys out.

They were following the agenda pretty much. I spoke with a lot of people and made some good connections. The networking was good the direction things are heading is grim in my view.
In a shocker, they made an abrupt turn around and tossed the previously accepted rec amberjack plan that included an increase in size limit but no closed season. Roy Crabtree voted against it. Your Florida recreational representative didnt cast his vote. Rumor has it that they are going to call for a 3 month rec AJ closure, even though the reduction called for could be reached without it.
The grouper discussion that I heard was mostly commercial, how to split up IFQs', who would be eligible to buy shares. For the commercial guys here you might find this interesting. Roy Crabtree, seemingly from out of no where, brought up changing the control dates previously released by NOAA from which the quotas would be established (1999-2004). No reason really, he just felt is should be looked at again to be sure that period reflects what they want it to. Roy also mentioned that the TAC should be set as low as possible to make sure the catch never appoaches the overfished benchmark. He suggested leaving a wide margin between the TAC and that benchmark. Less fish.
There was some discussion I didnt totally understand about splitting (50/50) the TAC between "dealers" and permit holders. Thats just what I heard, I dont know what it means really.
According to a good friend of mine from the CCA he says a 3 mixed grouper limit would have to come with a 5 month closure by the current numbers. Not what anyone wants but thats the way the math works as of now.
Another interesting point is that increases in size limit are not viewed as helping reduce the take much at all. Their dead discard estimates, which I believe to be completely wrong (21%), make it so releasing more fish simply means more dead discards so you are the bad guy either way. If your raised the size limit to ten feet, you will still be discarding more dead gags. IMO as a 19 year charter captain, the real DD number is somewhere between 3 and 10%. I am so certain these estimates are wrong, I have written a proposal for a new improved gag discard study that the FWRI is helping me submit for cooperative research grant.
If you want to disupte something, Id suggest the DD estimates.
Ill be there tomorrow to listen to the Islands in the Stream discussion.

Thanks for the info guys.:toast:

Make the long liners keep their undersize red grouper. Why discard these ? Does this make any sence at all? Count these dead undersize red grouper towards their landings.
Make the rec fishermen use circle hooks.
Wouldn't these two things greatly reduce release mortality in grouper?

Make the long liners keep their undersize red grouper. Why discard these ? Does this make any sence at all? Count these dead undersize red grouper towards their landings.
Make the rec fishermen use circle hooks.
Wouldn't these two things greatly reduce release mortality in grouper?

Long liners do not discard shorts, they recycle and use them as bait.

Everyone commercial and recreational must use circle hooks when using natural bait.

Sounds like a pretty standard council meeting. Glad to see so many turn out to participate in the public comment opportunity to speak to the issues.

The TAC/overfished buffer is an aspect of the precautionary principle which is challenging to counter without additional reliable data. The policy starts tends to blow back in your face regardless of how you turn. Still, it sounds like the collective support of several stakeholder groups might be able to provide the council science team with the needed assurances.

The dead discards, as observed, is another area which is ripe for additional/reliable data. Regrettably, it's often more difficult to obtain such data from the recreational sector, due to the factors present.

Spearfishing has a much easier time in this area, and should be able to lobby effectively for additional room to operate.

H&L should consider proposing additional efforts toward addressing the issue. Education, equipment/gear mods, etc. Anything to effect the decision favorably.

Such measures are likely to draw support from what might otherwise be contentious opponents, and provide greater opportunities for producing an acceptable outcome to the issues.

Good luck with your ongoing efforts. Keep up the reports. They're much appreciated.

Chip Bissell

The dead discards, as observed, is another area which is ripe for additional/reliable data. Regrettably, it's often more difficult to obtain such data from the recreational sector, due to the factors present.


For a nominal government grant and use of a government boat I would be glad to volunteer 40+ hours a week taking rec spearos out to get the needed data proving there is no decline in gag population and showing how little rec by-catch there really is....

Sounds like we are getting bent over and f*#ked hard.:bsflag:

First of all thank you guys for being there and giving us a current update on the proceedings.

Regarding the AJ issue: The required reduction to prevent "overfishing" of the resource can be reached by increasing the size limit and WITHOUT a closure yet that proposal was thrown out and the rec sector may now be facing a 3 month closure?? And OUR Gulf Council recreational representative decided that his vote wasn't important? WTF?? :banghead::redcard:

Bucket One

Sounds like we are getting bent over and f*#ked hard. :bsflag:

That's an understatement!! :(

Does anyone have any more information regarding Ed's comments on the "dealers" and permit holders?

Sounds like we are getting bent over and f*#ked hard.:bsflag:


Well, sounds like right now every alternative they were talking about is truly sucky for us. We would be screwed with the triple whopper -- less fish, bigger size minimum, and season closures. Oh wait, I did not mention the area closures. I for one do not want to have to resort to shooting spadefish on wrecks in 20ft of water. Have fun finding viz during the summer. Looking forward to another update for tomorrow, and showing up on Wed.:FIREdevil::BoomSmilie_anim::chuck::pissed:

Does anyone have any more information regarding Ed's comments on the "dealers" and permit holders?

They were just scrambling to get as many alternatives on paper as possible so that when an alternative is turned down they can fall back on something as equally preposterous. :banghead:

Denny, Fiz, and myself talked to our four state reps after the meeting ti discuss what we had heard about the AJ proposal being changed at the last minute. They assured us that it had not and that their recommend plan included no closed seacon and only the increase in size to 31". We will deffinetly have a problem if they change their statements after talking to the three of us.

I was only there for the last few hours and missed most of the IFQ talk. There was talk of auctioning off IFQ shares but I don't know the details. The rest was pretty much like AJ said in his opening posts.

I wish I could be there tomorrow, but I doubt I can. I will be there on Wednesday.

Everyone, we need a huge turn out on Wednesday!!!

Hey all-
According to the gag numbrs provided, an increase to 24"in gag would reduce the landings by roughly 22%.
And the effort is dropping like a stone.
And the gag assessment is still unreliable and highly questionable.

Thanks for the update guys!:allhail:

I will be there tommorow afternoon to listen to Billy Causey speak about the Islands in the stream and I'm still writing down what Im gonna say on Wednesday.
I sure Hope we see an overflow crowd on Wednesday!:toast:
It sounds like there is some real interest on the fishing boards, for a change.

Heres what they had to say about IFQ shares and auctioning them off. In the future after the IFQ system is in place, they said that IF they reevaluate the stocks and there is room for an increased TAC they might consider having a system in place to auction the new shares off to the highest bidder. Not such a good deal for the small independent fisherman. I kinda thought that they should distribute any increased shares to the existing shareholders evenly based on the share of the quota they own. Why take thier money?

Ill be there for the Islands presentation tomorrow.

It sounds like there is some real interest on the fishing boards, for a change.

Where??? Maybe one of us should start a "who's going" thread. What do you think, if the thread doesn't get alot of replies would that cause some disinterest?? Or if it got alot of replies could it get somemore people off the fence?:scratchhead:

Wish I could make it, but I plan on emailing my letter during the meeting time, as suggested previously. But someone edumicate me what does IFQ and TAC stand for?

Wish I could make it, but I plan on emailing my letter during the meeting time, as suggested previously. But someone edumicate me what does IFQ and TAC stand for?

IFQ= Individual fishing quota soon to be called Limited Access Privledge Program:redcard:

TAC= Total Allowable Catch

Thanks Fiz

Thanks Fiz




The TAC is a bogus number based on bogus science being handed down to real people with real families to support:bsflag:

The IFQ leaves way too much room for unfair practices and allocation. Why disenfranchise small fisherman that make little overall impact?

Thank you for keeps us posted guys. Can't get there from Baton Rouge, but have sent emails.

Who are the best people to hit with emails today. I have a few in drafts and I am looking for the biggest bang for my buck when I send them??

Thanks for fighting so hard guys. Everyone in the country should appreciate your efforts. What happens down there has a big impact on what happens elsewhere.

I'm not surprised there were only 100 chairs in the room. I'm surprised they still get rooms at all. Down here, the rooms are never full. I've never seen more than ten people in a hearing at any one time. So again, thank you all for showing up and working hard.

For a nominal government grant and use of a government boat I would be glad to volunteer 40+ hours a week taking rec spearos out to get the needed data proving there is no decline in gag population and showing how little rec by-catch there really is....

You might very well be able to get one! Just prepare a grant with the necessary supporting documentation and present your application to the appropriate agency.

In my experience, there are plenty of opportunities to draw upon these and other resources in order to pursue your goals. I've seen a lot of money handed out to groups that you wouldn't think would qualify, but when the data is needed and is to be gathered through proper scientific methodology, you'd be amazed what can happen.

But you have to be serious about it and willing to put in the effort, before, during, and after. But spearfishermen in FL should be all over this. After all the "dead discard" rate, and rules resulting from it, doesn't stem from spearfishing does it? Get a grant, gather the data, and prove something! That's what advocacy does for a sport.

For a nominal government grant and use of a government boat I would be glad to volunteer 40+ hours a week taking rec spearos out to get the needed data proving there is no decline in gag population and showing how little rec by-catch there really is....

How about using your own boat, your own time and getting a little gas money for spending most of your day doing research diving?

Even if you don't want to go or have the time to go, once you commit to research, you are in it.

It is rewarding to know that you participated in marine research. It is damned exciting when you record something never before recorded.

I've done it and I am still doing it.

Two Cooperative Research Projects and counting.

thi line did not make the last post:

TRY IT. You will not regret it.

Not to be picky, but to help clarify in order to avoid confusion down the line --

IFQ's are but one type of Limited Access Privilege (or LAP). There are a number of others that have been used, and more that are being developed.
LAP is the more preferred acronym to the familiar LEP, or Limited Entry Program.

Similar concepts. Different embodiments.
I hope that is helpful.

Denny,
That's great that you've been getting grant monies for diving research! Congratulations!!!
Is there a site online where we can read the results of your studies?

From the sound of it, it seems that the issues are crying out for studies on the "actual" dead discard rates of the different gear types.
After all, who wants to be subject to restrictive regulations because of another groups dirty fishing?

IFQ= Individual fishing quota soon to be called Limited Access Privledge Program:redcard:

TAC= Total Allowable Catch

I love that, what is my son supposed to catch when he starts fishing???

[QUOTE=Seacidal;54591]Not to be picky, but to help clarify in order to avoid confusion down the line --

IFQ's are but one type of Limited Access Privilege (or LAP). There are a number of others that have been used, and more that are being developed.
LAP is the more preferred acronym to the familiar LEP, or Limited Entry Program.

[QUOTE]

Seems like only the govt calls is a privilege. Even they used to call is a right.

The hogfish research will be available shortly on the NMFS and the Florida FWRI website.

The other is a project currently underway and not online.
One more thing- the State gets the grant money, we just take the scientists diving.

The Hogfish CRP was a result of stakeholders compaining about data, then being approached by a scientist about helping collect better data.

Denny,

What is the current method of determining mortality %??? Meaning are a limited # of fish caught useing different methods and then held in a controlled enviroment to see how many die???