Looks like a 50% reduction is on the way.
one gag per day, 5 aggregate, closed from Feb 15th to may 15th.
Pissed? I hope so.
Denny

So, do you want vaseline? Or is this what it takes to get the community to rise up?
Me, I'm locked and loaded.:BoomSmilie_anim:

:cussing:
I just joined the FRA.
Get 'em, boys.

Isn't from 5 to 1 an 80% reduction?

So, do you want vaseline? Or is this what it takes to get the community to rise up?
Me, I'm locked and loaded.:BoomSmilie_anim:

Just let us know when, just let us know where...The SpearfishingPlanet army will show up in full Braveheart fashion, complete with attitude!

Besides supporting the FRA, What can the average joe do to help?

That's bullshit. What can we do.

To achieve a 44% redcuction in landings, the OPPORTUNITY for the rec angler is reduced by 80%.
Sounds like horsecrap, but there is some validity to the concept.
What managers fail to understand is that the OPPORTUNITY is what drives the recreational sector, where as landings (catch) drives the commercial sector.

If a rec angler gets skunked ten times in a row, he will be going out for the 11th time to still try, spending money on every trip.
Take away his OPPORTUNITY and see him sell his boat.
That is EXACTLY what NMFS and the DB's at Ocean Conservancy want; to end fishing by all but a few, then regulate those out.

Oh yeah, the middle grounds are on the block.
Send Steve Atran an email and ask him which Council member told him to include ANY closed areas.
email is steve.atran@gulfcouncil.org
Let him have it.
Also, email the Gulf Council and ask who is in control of Steve and why he can put options in that have NO value other than to apease the enviros.

jihad comes to mind.

Let me guess, if studies were performed I'm sure they didn't include the oil rigs as habitat once again. I think we need someone like :chuck: on our side.

I was just thumbing thru July's issue of Florida Fishing Regulations(pg 12)..Effective July 1, 2007....(only in the Gulf) Black,Gag& Red Grouper....ZERO daily bag and possesion limit for captain and crew on for- hire vessels.....:wtf:

FRA. Where do I sign up?

Looks like a 50% reduction is on the way.
one gag per day, 5 aggregate, closed from Feb 15th to may 15th.
Pissed? I hope so.
Denny

That will Kill boats like the Jolly Rogers II and the Holy Spirit as well as any other Middle Grounds Charter Operation.

I guess they will soon find out what the economic impact of fishing was in florida, when they kill the offshore fishing.

If Gag Grouper are in such bad shape (how do they know when they had a study saying the dead discard weight was 7lbs?) why is it only the recreational sector taking the hit?

Are there any planned TAC reductions in the Commercial sector planned?

Is the commercial season going to be closed Feb. 15 to May 15?

So let me understand this clearly. On the cards is a proposal to reduce my daily aggregate bag limit of gags from 5 to 1?? 5 total for a vessel? Please tell me that is not the case. :nono::(:2gunsfiring_v1:

FRA. Where do I sign up?

www.thefra.org (http://www.thefra.org)

Bret-
The comms are taking a bigger hit (54% vs 44%). There is univeral opposition to the gag actions. The closed seasons are some of the alternatives being considered to achieve this outrageous reduction.

So let me understand this clearly. On the cards is a proposal to reduce my daily aggregate bag limit of gags from 5 to 1?? 5 total for a vessel? Please tell me that is not the case. :nono::(:2gunsfiring_v1:

Wish I could tell you that, but then I'd be lying to you.

Denny,

Is this reduction based on the study that said the average weight of discarded gags by recreational fishermen was 7 lbs?

I don't recall all of the details of the study, but I know Jeromy and Ed went through the data with a fine tooth comb and it was pretty screwed up, and when they pointed out the flaws with it, they just tweaked the numbers a bit to get the results they were looking for.

What are the details on the commercial reductions? Same closed seasons as the proposed rec? Smaller TAC? Smaller trip limits?


Is the new bag limit and closed season preferred alternatives, or is this a done deal? One gag, two red snappers, and one half of an amberjack? That will pretty much eliminate the need to have a Gulf Coast forum on this website......

Is this FL-wide or just the Gulf? Any links to the new regs or the data that is supporting it? Do these people want to see FL recreational fisherman (and the businesses that service them) with empty bellies and empty wallets?

What are the details on the commercial reductions? Same closed seasons as the proposed rec? Smaller TAC? Smaller trip limits?


Is the new bag limit and closed season preferred alternatives, or is this a done deal? One gag, two red snappers, and one half of an amberjack? That will pretty much eliminate the need to have a Gulf Coast forum on this website......


We will get AJ fixed, but we will see a size increase.

These are proposals and we will have public comment on them.
This will be the time to turnout the masses.

Denny,

Is this reduction based on the study that said the average weight of discarded gags by recreational fishermen was 7 lbs?

I don't recall all of the details of the study, but I know Jeromy and Ed went through the data with a fine tooth comb and it was pretty screwed up, and when they pointed out the flaws with it, they just tweaked the numbers a bit to get the results they were looking for.

Ed and Jeromy's work was what got us the re-review. We are still disputing the release mortality of 20%. The 7 pound release was corrected and actually caused the stock to look worse because the lower discard weight reduced the estimate of the biomass of gag.
The gag assessment is already unprecedented due to the fact that we got it re-reviewed. We may need to hire a real biologist to fight the next part of the battle, which would be the last step before court.

biologists are not cheap.
So, get those deathstick tickets and donate that dive gear to the Ebay for the FRA movement.

Side note: Not sure how I have hung in this long, but I can't afford to hire a biologist. Not yet, anyway.

Ed and Jeromy's work was what got us the re-review. We are still disputing the release mortality of 20%. The 7 pound release was corrected and actually caused the stock to look worse because the lower discard weight reduced the estimate of the biomass of gag.
The gag assessment is already unprecedented due to the fact that we got it re-reviewed. We may need to hire a real biologist to fight the next part of the battle, which would be the last step before court.

Where do they come up with these studies?

It seems to me if they release a study and then laymen find major flaws in it, it should not have any credibility, yet they can change the numbers (Obviously they were wrong, who throws back a 7 lb gag?) too make it look worse.

It seems to me that before they make drastic cuts, they should get real data, that is correct, not just just a study done by people with an agenda, if the gags are truly in trouble and need a reprieve fine, just don't cut them, just to screw with us.

Where do they come up with these studies?

It seems to me if they release a study and then laymen find major flaws in it, it should not have any credibility, yet they can change the numbers (Obviously they were wrong, who throws back a 7 lb gag?) too make it look worse.

It seems to me that before they make drastic cuts, they should get real data, that is correct, not just just a study done by people with an agenda, if the gags are truly in trouble and need a reprieve fine, just don't cut them, just to screw with us.


I have found flaws in EVERY assessment which I have participated in. It is the NMFS science machine that is part of the problem. they wont agree that the science is bad so they should just leave us alone; they insist on declaring their science as best available.
We have the FRA sharks lookig into a data quality law that could bust the whole thing open, or it could just be another set of worthless words from our guv'ment.

:cussing:Spearos-0..Enviros-1.....better odds than Vegas
Denny, this is very disturbing news my brutha...
Is there no possible intervention from the state? The economic impact is going to be horrendous!
Maybe those who we've spoken of in the past might wake up and smell the friggin coffee...:pissed:
What about a grassfire pet.? There has to be SOMETHING we can do?
Too bad we cant get the ACLU on board..we're definately being oppressed

this is not JUST a spearos battle..H&Lers, comms, EVERYONE'S affected.
Is it possible to gather all of Robin Hoods merrymen in a single location with a single bankroll a single cause and a single focus w/o the infighting???????

Maybe its time to shoot a few and start loading up on some pictures ! Get grouper schools, snapper schools, Ajs, anything that would help and change the approach. Tell them we are divers and here is the proof. New approach, we want 5 AJs , 10 gags, 5 reds, lower the size limits, 10 red snapper , reverse the tatic, quit trying to break even, and demand unreal high counts, we want GG tags, and we want it all asap. Confuse them , get a bunch of people behind it and demand it , get the paper to print it up.. Hit em for more than they can stand ! f

I feel lke I just got kicked in the balls,,,, AGAIN!:cussing:

One gag, two red snappers, and one half of an amberjack? That will pretty much eliminate the need to have a Gulf Coast forum on this website......

On a lighter note, JohnnyDinx will finally be able to limit out on a trip...:D

This nightmare just does not want to stop.....We are going to have to stop it ourselves.

So who wants to book the first 1 fish grouper charter? Yahoo.

And on top of it all the MPA freaks are once again trying to use this to perpetuate their own (or the Foundation that pays thems) agenda of closing more of the ocean to all fishermen.

Im sure the list is the same as always:
Middlegrounds
Elbow
40 break
anywhere else you may have seen a grouper.

So we are going to have 1 fish Amberjack limits but a larger size.? Can an entire club join the FRA. I am the Club President of the Aqua Aces in Louisiana and we would love to make a donation. We also have a rodeo that benefits our Children's Hospital, but I think we can change the speargun raffle to benefit the FRA. Let me know and I will bring it up for a vote at the August 14th meeting.

I am now a FRA Member. Go get em. :chuck:

not to start a pissing match between commercial and recreational fishermen but isn't every fish in the Federal Waters of the Gulf of Mexico owned by every citizen of the United States? if this is true then why is the majority of the Gag Groupers TAC gifted to less than 1% of this countrys' population?

i was discussing the Red Snapper IFQ with a friend. here is my "conspiracy" theory on what we might find happening in the near future.

all GOM fish will eventually go on an IFQ. those who wrote the IFQ laws into effect eventually retire and set up a corporation or the lawmakers get "consulting" fees for getting rid of all those "pesky recreational and small time fishing comm. opperations." only 50 or so "larger" comm. fishing vessels will be left to catch the majority of the fish in the GOM. remember any US citizen after 5 years of the IFQ being implemented can buy up the poundage. one or two large corporations are set up to buy all the IFQ for Grouper, Snappers, AJ's, ect. the corporation has complete control over the market, when the fish are caught, what the dockside and market side price is and where the fish will be sold. the government agencies NMFS ect. absolutely loves this idea because all the fish can be counted and taxed with realitive ease.

the cow heard like public sits back at home and forages through the local Wal-Marts and TGI Fridays moo-ing ever so slightly with a slight bit of animosity about the subject but after a few months takes up knitting further removing mens ability to show himself and his constituants that he has a pair.

i need to get back to working on the FWC/NMFS grouper forum videos to show the rest of the world what a bunch of incompetent fools work for "us". does anyone have a server with a large amount of bandwidth that i can post it on?

I am now a FRA Member. Go get em. :chuck:

Me too! Make the T-shirt an XL.

Well that about does it. I can't see spending all the money on the boat, electronics, storage, fuel, tackle, food, etc. ect. to get one gag and a few mango's.

If this is true, then gone are my plans to move up to a 32. Hell, I'm thinking of just selling the one I have.

Anyone that was at the last few meetings can tell the this is all decided before the discussion meetings are even scheduled. All data is not worth the paper it is printed on and if a error is found they just plug in new data to get the results they want. Denny is correct is saying it is now or never to get our own specailist hired to compile better data that gives the true picture of our fishery. If we hired someone today it will not change the outcome for the short term as THEY WILL IMPLEMENT REDUCTIONS FOR 2008 and it will be almost impossible to get it back once it's gone.

Now they want a five grouper aggregate, but only one of the five being a gag. Denny did PM me however that four of the five can be red grouper. Huh? So red grouper that had a five fish bag up until 2005 when they were declared severely "overfished" and on the verge of extinction was reduced to the present one fish bag limit or an 80% REDUCTION. We subsequently found out that red grouper are not "overfished" and in fact have never undergone overfishing according the stat wonks at the NMFS. Now in the process of reenacting the Ned Beatty scene in the movie Deliverance on us with respect to our gag grouper limits they are INCREASING the current red grouper limit by 400%! Do these people have a clue?

AJ-
Not to try to cover the shoddy work of NMFS, but the numbers show that not that many peple will catch more than one red grouper per person per trip (this was used when we went to two reds under amendment 18). Percentages of people who get mutiple fish is somewhat limited compared to people who get one. For example, the number of people who limit out on gags currently is less than 2% of all anglers.

I'll dig through and find a table that shows the % of catch taken by multiple fish landers.

The most successful recreational people are the people who take it in the shorts. That has also happened in the comm sector when trip limits were imposed on the grouper fishery. The 6000# limit did not hurt the small comm, but it DID send all of the 'highliners' packing. The guys who could land 10-25 THOUSAND pounds of grouper per trip are now fishing elsewhere.

Again-
These are some of the prposals to achieve a nearly 50% reduction in gag landings.

I have added posts on FS in every west coast section. Denny I have some more info from Steve I need to get to you.

Ben, your analysis is a fact, not fiction.

That is exactly what happened in the first ITQ program in the NE US. GORTONS and other large companies now have title to our countries natural resource. All fishermen, rec and commercial, as well as the public, got screwed. Fishing is more-or-less history. The big companies and the crooked politicians who are supported by them got paid.

And it was orchestrated by the current leadership of NMFS. :pissed:

not to start a pissing match between commercial and recreational fishermen but isn't every fish in the Federal Waters of the Gulf of Mexico owned by every citizen of the United States? if this is true then why is the majority of the Gag Groupers TAC gifted to less than 1% of this countrys' population?

i was discussing the Red Snapper IFQ with a friend. here is my "conspiracy" theory on what we might find happening in the near future.

all GOM fish will eventually go on an IFQ. those who wrote the IFQ laws into effect eventually retire and set up a corporation or the lawmakers get "consulting" fees for getting rid of all those "pesky recreational and small time fishing comm. opperations." only 50 or so "larger" comm. fishing vessels will be left to catch the majority of the fish in the GOM. remember any US citizen after 5 years of the IFQ being implemented can buy up the poundage. one or two large corporations are set up to buy all the IFQ for Grouper, Snappers, AJ's, ect. the corporation has complete control over the market, when the fish are caught, what the dockside and market side price is and where the fish will be sold. the government agencies NMFS ect. absolutely loves this idea because all the fish can be counted and taxed with realitive ease.

the cow heard like public sits back at home and forages through the local Wal-Marts and TGI Fridays moo-ing ever so slightly with a slight bit of animosity about the subject but after a few months takes up knitting further removing mens ability to show himself and his constituants that he has a pair.

i need to get back to working on the FWC/NMFS grouper forum videos to show the rest of the world what a bunch of incompetent fools work for "us". does anyone have a server with a large amount of bandwidth that i can post it on?

This is ridiculous :banghead::banghead::banghead:

This is just completely maddening. Protecting the fisheries for future generations is a noble cause. But refusing to place sanctions on the biggest offenders is not protecting the fisheries no matter how you look at it. Even if they go to a 1 fish per year recreational limit, we still won't see any more fish in the sea.

Hell, they'll probably use the reduced recreational catch numbers as "proof" that the fisheries are in worse shape.

I've contacted the Gulf Council about this latest abomination.

This is just completely maddening. Protecting the fisheries for future generations is a noble cause. But refusing to place sanctions on the biggest offenders is not protecting the fisheries no matter how you look at it. Even if they go to a 1 fish per year recreational limit, we still won't see any more fish in the sea.

Hell, they'll probably use the reduced recreational catch numbers as "proof" that the fisheries are in worse shape.

I've contacted the Gulf Council about this latest abomination.

People are missing the point.

"The biggest offender" is NMFS. They are basically using contrived, manipulated data to turn the resource over to big business.

You are right. My letter to the Gulf Council basically stated that.

[quote=Denny;4620]www.thefra.org (http://www.thefra.org)

Bret-
The comms are taking a bigger hit (54% vs 44%). There is univeral opposition to the gag actions. The closed seasons are some of the alternatives being considered to achieve this outrageous reduction.

quote]


:slap:This is the same people that were given much props in a recent issue of Spearfishing Magazine as I recall. This is why you do not join forces with these Sh*t heads that are just waiting to shove it up our azzes! :moon: to all who have trusted these people!

So Let make sure I am getting this...... I am a bit slow... If I run a head boat and have 25 people on board.. I will only beable to keep 5 Fuggin grouper?

If that is the case then may of the marinas will be going out of business starting with Clearwater and then on down the line.. 80% of the boats out of clearwater marina are Charter boats, when there Regular guest see that they can only keep so few fish they will look else where to vacation. Not only us fisherman will lose out but the whole state of Florida will crumble.. I would love to know what kind of tax dollar hit the state and local citys would take from this.....

Nobody staying at the hotels = No Bed tax
Nobody eating at restaurants = No food tax
Nobody Fueling there cars, boats, RV's... well you get the idea

Not to mention less travel on toll road.. This could be very very bad!

Here is the real deal: Florida's economy sucks right now. The seafood and restaurant business is one of Florida's major industries. Some seafood companies are huge and wealthy beyond belief (Joe Patti Seafood, Pensacola). They set out to control our govt. years ago, and have been winning. Petitions and voting is our best offense - bring this crap to a public vote and commercial will lose!

I do believe that is what will happen, someday, along time from now! The question is when? The answer is when recreation fisherman are regulated into oblivion. Is this oblivion yet? Although it seems like it to many of us, I don't think a amendment would get the votes today, But maybe! It should! Basically your talking about another net ban type situation. You can't take something for yourself without taking it away from someone else. Taking Grouper and Snapper to something like a, no commercial sale situation will be alot harder than the netban was. Got my vote though! What's the alternative? Corruption and insane laws that do nothing. Someday they will not have any more regulations they can implement onto recs. They will continue to try, but about that time, it will flip on them with a amendment something like the netban. There is no question that the recreational fishery is a million times more important to the FL economy than comercial fishing. Someday we, the majotiy by a million times, will force them to realize it.

Remember that the Gulf Council is controlled by the feds under the Dept. of COMMERCE! They don't care what happens to Florida's economy. They want to protect the federal economy with our fish! This is not a local decision, this is big money, big lobbyists, big deals made in back rooms in Washington.

Here is the real deal: Florida's economy sucks right now. The seafood and restaurant business is one of Florida's major industries. Some seafood companies are huge and wealthy beyond belief (Joe Patti Seafood, Pensacola). They set out to control our govt. years ago, and have been winning. Petitions and voting is our best offense - bring this crap to a public vote and commercial will lose!


Hole,
I think your thinking is a little dated. Yes... commercial influence used to be significant in councel decisions.
That is no longer the case IMO. Environmental extremists have been working hard putting there people in place as well as getting there policies in place.
They have infiltrated every level of management and they command attention during the scientific process. The Recently ratified Magnuson-Stevens act is a perfect example of this.
You all will be hearing that name a lot more in the comming years and be very pizzed off when you do.

Hey, Richt, if environmental extremist controlled much, then wouldn't they be more focused on commercial longlining? The scientific process in use right now is a joke, and as usual, the gov't. thinks the general public is stupid enough to accept their scientific lies... You certainly have a good point about the environmentalist influence, but IMO we gotta believe the commercial sector still has a strangle hold on decision makers...

Hey, Richt, if environmental extremist controlled much, then wouldn't they be more focused on commercial longlining? The scientific process in use right now is a joke, and as usual, the gov't. thinks the general public is stupid enough to accept their scientific lies... You certainly have a good point about the environmentalist influence, but IMO we gotta believe the commercial sector still has a strangle hold on decision makers...


Hole,
Certainly commercial stakeholders have influence in the process just as recreational stakeholders have influence in the process.
And what you say makes sense, but if you look a little closer you will see that what I'm saying is already occuring.
Now I'm the last person on the board that will defend longlining but if you look at recent restrictions you will see that they have been hurt considerably over the last few years as well as small commercial operations.

Example1: Closing grouper for 1 month and Aj for 3.
Imagine if you had a large business that basically shut down for this period of time. How long do you think you would stay in business?
Example 2: Trip limits. Trip limits have seriously hurt large longline operators.
Many large operators have been reduced by as much as 80 percent capacity with a 6000 pound trip limit. What would you do if your business was reduced 80 percent?
Example 3: Vessel Monitoring System (VMS) VMS has seriously hurt the small commercial operations by adding another expense to an already marginal Return on Investment (ROI).

There are many others but these are some of the biggys.

If anybody thinks they have seen the worst of things, I'm here to tell everybody that you havent seen nothing yet! The re-authorization of the Magnuson-Stevens act is going to show just how much influence the Environmental extremists have.
Instead of a 10 year rebuilding plans before, there is now a 2 year rebuilding requirement!
That means that they (scientists and managers) will have even less time to gather and study sceintific data with which to make decisions.
If "they" or "us" try to buy time trying to get the data properly analyzed or a situation fully studied then we will witness the power of the Enviros and their huge war chest.
They will sue the pants off every single government agency to make them comply with Magnuson...
Its going to get real ugly unless/until some major players or politicians get involved.

If anybody thinks they have seen the worst of things, I'm here to tell everybody that you havent seen nothing yet! The re-authorization of the Magnuson-Stevens act is going to show just how much influence the Environmental extremists have.Ordinarily I am not one for conspiracy theories that are difficult to verify, but I feel that Rich is right on with this one. The only people guaranteed to be in Galveston tonight besides me, is the O.C. That is no coincidence. CCA? Maybe. RFA? No, Jim's going to the Corpus meeting. Meeting time tonight: 1:30 tops with the O.C. on for ten.

There will be nothing left but catch and release. Other countries don't do that to thier people. They do it to their tourists.

Where do they come up with these studies?I was recently told by a pretty reliable source that the 20% release mortality was based on 20 fish caught off NC. They have used that mortality rate for all fish species since then and no other studies have been done.

To my understanding they are applying the same mortality rate to amberjack, snapper and triggerfish. As far as the other studies, who knows?

The AJ release mortality for the recreational sector is most likely too high, as they are tough fish.

Im joing the FRA, this is rediculous. I have never even got a grouper and this is pissing me off. I dont see how the government will allow this to happen and let company monopolize on a sport that is so favored amoung local communities.