I was recently questioned about a post on SFP that was purportedly expressed a rather unfavorable opinion of recent spearfishing advocacy efforts by a group other than the FRA. The post was rather insulting and abusive, and I was asked if this mindset was prevalent in spearfishing.

When I was unable to locate the thread myself, I was referred to an archived edition, which was where this individual had come across the post. I made efforts to explain that spearfishers were a diverse group, yet all shared a passion for the activity. I expressed that some individuals may be less inclined to courteous discussions, but that overall, spearfishing was a group with strong concerns for responsible management and professional participation in such efforts. But frankly, the damage of the post was likely already done.

With more particular identifying information available, I returned to SFP in effort to locate the original post and perhaps reply in an attempt to clarify matters, or at least initiate a discussion based on facts.

After searching SFP, I'm fairly convinced that the thread has been deleted or otherwise removed. I suppose that is probably helpful, but I wonder if it was removed upon greater reflection by the poster, or as a result of moderator action?

It would be far preferable if, rather than start rumors and insult the efforts of others, individuals would go to the source in order to have discussions and seek answers to their questions. Often, such a more professional approach can pave the way for greater understanding, less hostility, and an allied effort toward addressing the issues.

Or you could PM me and I would do my best to answer your questions and find out what post your talking about and what might have happened to it.

Let me know.

The original poster can delete his thread, which deletes all posts underneath it- that often happens.

would need more specifics, who started the thead, maybe a title. I have pulled some posts but I normally send a pm as to why. Send me what details you have in a pm, and i will look into it

Chris

Gamble,
I must admit I don't know who exactly holds the reins at SFP. I receive a fair amount of email and PMs from individuals that I know of primarily from SFP, but I wouldn't know who to approach in this case, as I don't know which forum the post was published in.

I realize that the original poster could have perhaps had second thoughts and chosen to delete their post, and thereby, it could have disappeared from present view. Perhaps it's a presumption, but based on repeated observations, that hostile and insulting posts are rarely if ever voluntarily removed by the writer.

In order to better identify the post that was presented to me: it was entitled "razor's edge my ass" and proceeded to go to great length to belittle and insult recent efforts to coordinate broader participation of spearfishing interests in fisheries issues.

I make efforts to remain open minded and strive to identify and focus on "common ground" -- rather than engage in practices which serve to drive others away from our shared goals. But I recognize well that none of us are perfect. And I put myself at or near the top of that list.

Regardless, ultimately it's principles not personalities that require our focus, and the consistent exercise of those principles will yield the greatest results over time.

Thanks for all of the interest and support that some of you have communicated. It's appreciated and I am encouraged that there is real reason for optimism.

Chip Bissell
aka Seacidal

I read it, it was about correting miss-informations being put out by Tony and his closet advisors. All corrections were based on facts.

It had nothing to do with you Chip.

I am sure the reason it was taken down , was becasue Tony actually stood up at the last meeting and defended our right to fish.


Chris if you want more info about the post just PM me.

"I was recently questioned about a post on SFP that was purportedly expressed a rather unfavorable opinion of recent spearfishing advocacy efforts by a group other than the FRA. The post was rather insulting and abusive, and I was asked if this mindset was prevalent in spearfishing.

When I was unable to locate the thread myself, I was referred to an archived edition, which was where this individual had come across the post. I made efforts to explain that spearfishers were a diverse group, yet all shared a passion for the activity. I expressed that some individuals may be less inclined to courteous discussions, but that overall, spearfishing was a group with strong concerns for responsible management and professional participation in such efforts. But frankly, the damage of the post was likely already done.

With more particular identifying information available, I returned to SFP in effort to locate the original post and perhaps reply in an attempt to clarify matters, or at least initiate a discussion based on facts.

After searching SFP, I'm fairly convinced that the thread has been deleted or otherwise removed. I suppose that is probably helpful, but I wonder if it was removed upon greater reflection by the poster, or as a result of moderator action?

It would be far preferable if, rather than start rumors and insult the efforts of others, individuals would go to the source in order to have discussions and seek answers to their questions. Often, such a more professional approach can pave the way for greater understanding, less hostility, and an allied effort toward addressing the issues."

Chip,

I wrote it and I later deleted the thread, it was a distraction from the council meeting. I did not take it down to cover anything up, I simply felt I had made my point. I will be happy to repost it, however you said that you had already seen it. Why would you be looking for it here or wondering who wrote it if you had already seen it "archived" somewhere?

Since writing it, I have communicated with Tony in reference to the issues addressed and complimented him(on SB) on his appearance and participation in the council meeting in St. Pete. I sent him a very long pm addressing my various issues and invited him to provide his side of things. Other than a brief response, nothing further has come out of it. The other issues can be addressed privately. As far as SFP goes, it is not owned by one person. It was started by Grauwer and myself, but decisions are made based on what is best for the sport, and the protection of it. Just as it is counterproductive for me to air my grievances publicly, the same goes for you trying to dig it back up. I'm not sure what your motives are, but I know you are associated with Tony and his new organization. It would be best for you to contact me direct at howiesca@yahoo.com and I will be happy to elaborate on my positions.

If you feel the post was abusive, unfavorable, and insulting, you are correct. Many people here have been abused, treated unfavorably, and insulted by the people discussed in the thread. Just as everyone else here is entitled to his/her opinion, I reserve the right to express mine. In the 3 weeks since the thread was posted and deleted, Tony has invested his time to attend the council meeting, supported the FRA, joined the FRA, and has been a large part of the speargun raffle currently underway benefiting the FRA. I have not made a single negative comment about Tony since the council meeting because of this progress.

Either you are 3 weeks behind on current events, attempting to stir the hornet's nest, or simply trying to mediate. Hopefully, your intentions are the latter, either way, I have already made the first step in trying to work together.

I guess I didn't see the original post, or I forgot about it, but I am quite pleased by Howies post. We (as spearfishermen) are too small of a group to be divided....we need to try and find common ground and work together. I commend Howie for his post and his actions.

:smthumbup:

Thanks Scott, I call it as I see it. Always have, always will. Right now, I see Tony trying to help, trying to provide support for the FRA, and trying to get involved with the process. Not much else matters to me right now.
I have given him some room to breathe because of these efforts. I am open to a direct dialogue with Tony to resolve all of the BS issues that are lingering. He has my list of personal grievances and I have invited him to provide the same. Perhaps we can lay much of the past issues to rest with direct communication as opposed to public attacks. It is in everyone's best interest to try.

I have read all 38 of your post. One had ANYTHING to do with spearfishing. Your avatar alone speaks volumes about your viewpoint. I don't see any fish, speargun, stringer, ect. In my opinion you are nothing more than a covert distraction to our cause. And your timing seems to indicate that. If I am wrong, post some pictures.

Chip can and does kill some nice fish.

Jeromy, I consider you a friend. But until he shows up at a meeting, gives a BUNCH of money. Spends time gathering info to fight our case. He is a CA treehuger with 38 posts who has tried to DRIVE himself into the decision making our our group. Go back and read his post.

GO BACK AND READ HIS POST. He has brought nothing to the table but confusion.

I feel the same Tom but all I'm saying is Chip is VERY involved fighting for spearfishing/fishing rights in CA. I won't pretend to understand his motives for the above post as I'm not psychic but before tare and feathering him maybe we could try to understand his point of view through questions rather than insults.

That's my opinion..................

Jeromy, I consider you a friend. But until he shows up at a meeting, gives a BUNCH of money. Spends time gathering info to fight our case. He is a CA treehuger with 38 posts who has tried to DRIVE himself into the decision making our our group. Go back and read his post.

GO BACK AND READ HIS POST. He has brought nothing to the table but confusion.


As usual, you pull the trigger without knowing what the hell you are talking about. He has probably been to more meetings and put in more hours on regulatory issues than you have put in diving. Sorry if they are in CA, but I haven't seen you at any meeting out here, so I guess that makes you a Florida treehugger.

There is a world outside of SFP you know, and a place outside of Florida, so if post count is important to you, check out his posts in the CA forum of Spearboard. He has started more threads on the MPAs than all the rest of us combined. I imagine he posts them there instead of here because that is the board with concern for CA issues as well as Florida issues, while this one only talks about Florida issues and refers to Californians as treehuggers and worse.

As far as your insistence that he show photos of fish goes- I doubt that he will feel it necessary to prove himself to you, but I have plenty of photos of him with very nice fish on my boat from back when he lived closer to me, but I'm not going to post them when he himself isn't posting his own. If you want something more current though, a recent Spearhunter show featured him shooting some very nice fish with Terry Maas.

Quick to judge, quick to anger, slow to understand...

Guys, it's easy to throw stones. How about using them to build a house instead?

Sounds like Kahuna is frustrated and untrusting at the moment. Seems to have been the MO of most of the Florida contingent as of late. So, it's honest frustration, IMO.

Kahuna, I have offered to pay postage for all the renewals for the FRA members as well as stuff the envelopes and lick the stamps/envelopes and put them in the mail personally, but have yet to hear from anyone on the matter. I am frustrated as well. Almost to the point of not wanting to help.

If we embrace what Chris has to say, maybe we can all further our goals.

He could be asking questions that some have yet to ask themselves...

Other peoples' ideas will never be accepted as well as we accept our own. Basic human nature.:absolut:

Relapse,

Your offer of help was relayed to the board. Right now, we are organizing the membership drive. You offer is acknowledged and will be responded to by the appropriate FRA rep.

As usual, you pull the trigger without knowing what the hell you are talking about. He has probably been to more meetings and put in more hours on regulatory issues than you have put in diving. Sorry if they are in CA, but I haven't seen you at any meeting out here, so I guess that makes you a Florida treehugger.

There is a world outside of SFP you know, and a place outside of Florida, so if post count is important to you, check out his posts in the CA forum of Spearboard. He has started more threads on the MPAs than all the rest of us combined. I imagine he posts them there instead of here because that is the board with concern for CA issues as well as Florida issues, while this one only talks about Florida issues and refers to Californians as treehuggers and worse.

As far as your insistence that he show photos of fish goes- I doubt that he will feel it necessary to prove himself to you, but I have plenty of photos of him with very nice fish on my boat from back when he lived closer to me, but I'm not going to post them when he himself isn't posting his own. If you want something more current though, a recent Spearhunter show featured him shooting some very nice fish with Terry Maas.

I have heard the same about Chip, I am willing to give him some attention if he is willing to help with regulatory issues. East Coast/West Coast, Freedive/Scuba, I don't care. Anyone willing to help is welcome to provide input.

Thanks, Howie.

Hope no one took the post above as a snip. Just relating to the frustration that Kahuna might be experiencing. If it was taken wrong, then I may have presented it wrongly.

The division seems to be reaching a point of being more problematic than helpful.:toast:

I have met Chip in person and found him to be a very intelligent, well spoken professional. He may not understand exactly what we are facing here in Florida, but he has dealt with similar issues in California, I believe.

SFP and SB seem to be trying to mend some fences and get moving toward the same important goals. Let's not fly off half cocked and blow it up again....patience, Grashoppers!!!

I have met Chip in person and found him to be a very intelligent, well spoken professional. He may not understand exactly what we are facing here in Florida, but he has dealt with similar issues in California, I believe.

I am assuming that Chip is a good guy. But he comes off very condescending, and does generally try to stir shit up. He assumes that we are ***********************************s, on the wrong track. He has earned his image with me, anyway. I'm still waiting for a positive contribution from him, but I'm open minded about it.

As far as California goes, I am very happy that the divers there are active and I'm confident over time that we will join forces to get a fair shake.

I have met Chip in person and found him to be a very intelligent, well spoken professional. He may not understand exactly what we are facing here in Florida, but he has dealt with similar issues in California, I believe.

SFP and SB seem to be trying to mend some fences and get moving toward the same important goals. Let's not fly off half cocked and blow it up again....patience, Grashoppers!!!

That's wonderful Scott, does he play the guitar too? Who exactly is we that you're refering too? I can't seem to remember the last time you actually shot a fish or posted a report. Maybe SFP and SB will mend the fences and then you'll be able to pimp your product on both sites without being called out.

That's wonderful Scott, does he play the guitar too? Who exactly is we that you're refering too? I can't seem to remember the last time you actually shot a fish or posted a report. Maybe SFP and SB will mend the fences and then you'll be able to pimp your product on both sites without being called out.

That's pretty low, way to build consensus in the community.:rofl:

You're right relapse, it was low and a cheap shot. Playing both sides like SL does on each site isn't building any consensus in the community either. :rolleyes:

You're right relapse, it was low and a cheap shot. Playing both sides like SL does on each site isn't building any consensus in the community either. :rolleyes:

If Scott L is playing both sides then he deserves it. I have never seen that but I don't always catch all the inside jokes either. Please, fill us in.

All right girls, if you want to fight do it for real and in private. Personaly, I'd support 10 web sites if the people there worked to protect our sport.

All right girls, if you want to fight do it for real and in private. Personaly, I'd support 10 web sites if the people there worked to protect our sport.

Good call Chad. How does owning a hole in the water feel like, for the first time? I can't remember...

bryan, :confused:
No mas :beer: 4 you tonight

Yea, It's my first boat, well that I paid for - I had a couple growing up in the Keys.

On the way out the first time, in socked in fog, the radar wouldn't come on. High pucker factor for a while, but we got it going. Tore into it yesterday and found the source of the problem, a loose connection on the fuse block in the console. I know it will be a money pit, but I have someone to share the costs with and neither of us is the type of guy to count who ate the most honey buns on the last trip when it comes to $$$, so hopefully it will be all good.

Come on guys. Were throwing rocks at the good guys!:crazy:
We are all (obviously) frustrated right now but lets try to remember where the problems are and work to address them constructively, please.

bryan, :confused:
No mas :beer: 4 you tonight

Yup. My bad guys.

It's late, I'm bored, and frustrated. I apologize Scott. I know you've always been a big supporter of the FRA and tournaments and I commend you on that.

I have someone to share the costs with

It'll be more like a support group when your wives find out how much it costs.:awink:

Congrats.

Yup. My bad guys.

It's late, I'm bored, and frustrated. I apologize Scott. I know you've always been a big supporter of the FRA and tournaments and I commend you on that.

Whatever happened to going to the VENUS?:whistle:

I have always based MY opinion on actions I have personally witnessed or been subject to and harbour no ill will towards ANYONE without just cause. Infighting is counterproductive and is a distraction for all whom read whatever diatribe is being posted.
I have a philosophy that important facts are made a part of our historical record and those not worthy, which time is spent, are typically a waste of time and time spent focusing on the past which robs from the future...

We all need to FOCUS on tomorrow..not on yesterdays news..

Howie,
Hats off my brutha.....

Yup. My bad guys.

It's late, I'm bored, and frustrated. I apologize Scott. I know you've always been a big supporter of the FRA and tournaments and I commend you on that.

I try not to let message board banter bother me, Bryan, and yours really didn't....no apology needed. Admittedly, I don't get to dive as often as I'd like, and the reason I used ScottL on here is so that people wouldn't think I was just here to "pimp product". Also, I didn't just wander over here from the other board - I was emailed an invite...probably like many of you.

As for playing the boards against each other, you would need to show me some examples, because every time I post on either board, I try to choose my words carefully and say exactly what I mean.

All of that has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand, nor the fact that I would personally like to see the drama between the boards end and everyone working together toward the common good of the sport. That includes the guys who don't live in our back yard.

I have a 9 year old and a 14 year old who are just itching to go spearfishing and I would love for them to be able to do so.

That's all I got....

The data that is being used against us is faulty, full of holes and very biased against us. Very bad decisions are being made based on this false data. That is the point we have to stick to. That's what will win this.
Anything else is a distraction

The data that is being used against us is faulty, full of holes and very biased against us. Very bad decisions are being made based on this false data. That is the point we have to stick to. That's what will win this.
Anything else is a distraction

How do we prove to the NMFS the data is bad?

The NMFS says they have to use what they have available and we all agree that what they have is wrong, and when it was pointed out to them, they reworked the numbers and it looked even worse for us.

The NMFS is calling for a 45% reduction in gags, yet they think that taking 80% of the bag limit equals 45%, how do you reason with that?

We don't the judge does. We all know that's where this is going. .They don't want to listen to reason and we don't have the political push to make them. Only the judge will. We need to stick to the facts, their actions do NOT comply with MS act. That's where we need to focus. Anything that takes our eye off of that is counterproductive. But that's my opinion and like ***********************************s, everybodys got one.

This thread should of been over when over when Howie responded to Chip.

Bill i have offered my support to help write letters, send emails, to help support my California brethern. I know others that feel the same way. How can you expect to garner our support without trying to educate us the issues you face. Please dont discount us as not interested or uncaring, i think you would be surprised at the support your community could receive.

It is my opinion that those who assisted in derailing this thread should self edit/delete thier posts, but that is just my opinion.

Have great weekend hope everyone gets to get out and shoot some fish.

Chris

This thread should of been over when over when Howie responded to Chip.

Bill i have offered my support to help write letters, send emails, to help support my California brethern. I know others that feel the same way. How can you expect to garner our support without trying to educate us the issues you face. Please dont discount us as not interested or uncaring, i think you would be surprised at the support your community could receive.



Chris, I know you have offered support and I appreciate it. However, while I didn't read the posts that Chip referred to before they were deleted, he just got called a California treehugger for trying to discuss concerns here. Apparently his attempt to garner support and educate people was not well received. He was dismissed because he only has 38 posts here and had not been seen at Florida meetings or donated money to Florida causes. The fact that he is more active out here than damn near anyone didn't count.

His status as really being a diver was questioned because he hasn't posted fish photos here, and because his avatar showed his father teaching him to dive as a young kid. He has probably been diving and spearfishing far longer than the great majority of guys on this board, but if he doesn't show a big fish in his avatar, he is a CA treehugger.

If that comment was the only one I had ever seen dismissing California and California divers as something other than real citizens or real divers, then I'd laugh it off. Unfortunately, I think it reflects the POV of significant portion of people on this board from the Southeastern US.

I'm not privy to all the inside stuff, but from what I read, I'm assuming that Chip is involved with Tony in trying to form an organization to benefit divers on both coasts. Given all the animosity toward Tony that is exhibited here, I guess that would make Chip the enemy no matter where he lived. I don't blame Chip if he doesn't want to make any overtures in the future. I sure wouldn't.

Edit: Chip is not a member of the Berkeley City Council, and neither am I. Please don't think that we tried to kick the Marine recruiters out of town.

Chris, I know you have offered support and I appreciate it. However, while I didn't read the posts that Chip referred to before they were deleted, he just got called a California treehugger for trying to discuss concerns here. Apparently his attempt to garner support and educate people was not well received. He was dismissed because he only has 38 posts here and had not been seen at Florida meetings or donated money to Florida causes. The fact that he is more active out here than damn near anyone didn't count.

His status as really being a diver was questioned because he hasn't posted fish photos here, and because his avatar showed his father teaching him to dive as a young kid. He has probably been diving and spearfishing far longer than the great majority of guys on this board, but if he doesn't show a big fish in his avatar, he is a CA treehugger.

If that comment was the only one I had ever seen dismissing California and California divers as something other than real citizens or real divers, then I'd laugh it off. Unfortunately, I think it reflects the POV of significant portion of people on this board from the Southeastern US.

I'm not privy to all the inside stuff, but from what I read, I'm assuming that Chip is involved with Tony in trying to form an organization to benefit divers on both coasts. Given all the animosity toward Tony that is exhibited here, I guess that would make Chip the enemy no matter where he lived. I don't blame Chip if he doesn't want to make any overtures in the future. I sure wouldn't.

Edit: Chip is not a member of the Berkeley City Council, and neither am I. Please don't think that we tried to kick the Marine recruiters out of town.

Just for the record Bill, my response to Chip has nothing to do with his diving skills or location. I simply stated that to abide by his suggestion of cooperation, it would be better that we not drum up old negative posts publicly. The last time Chip posted, it was to let us know(in his opinion) that having a large crowd show up at our council meetings was ineffective. I politely disagreed with him and we moved on. BTW, he has not taken the opportunity to contact me directly to discuss the questions he raised in this thread, therefore I think we should wrap it up here.

Once again, I can be reached direct/privately at howiesca@yahoo.com.