I always seem to miss a few fish every dive. They are shots I think I should be making. I never really sight down the shaft to aim. I pretty much just point and shoot. When I try to take time to line up the shot I tend to miss even more. I do wear glasses and was wondering if a prescription mask is what I need or if I'm just not aiming correctly. How do you guys aim? Is it just something that will come with experience? Thanks.

How new are your bands? It made a huge difference for me when I figured out how fresh bands can increase my accuracy.

How new are your bands? It made a huge difference for me when I figured out how fresh bands can increase my accuracy.

Brand new bands. I bought them saturday and used them sunday.

What is the size of the gun and kind and length of bands? How many bands do you load?
How far away is the fish you are trying to shoot ?

Chris

What is the size of the gun and kind and length of bands? How many bands do you load?
How far away is the fish you are trying to shoot ?

Chris

The gun is a 48" sea hornet and I normally load a single 24" x 5/8" band. I miss alot of shots from like 8 feet.

Hopefully kevin will chime in regarding your question.

I used to use a 22 inch band on my 48 biller. And would double up with 24 for jacks.
Is you shaft droping short of the fish? Are you using a free shaft or a line?
Does your shft vear off in one direction?
Chris

Hopefully kevin will chime in regarding your question.

I used to use a 22 inch band on my 48 biller. And would double up with 24 for jacks.
Is you shaft droping short of the fish? Are you using a free shaft or a line?
Does your shft vear off in one direction?
Chris

I cant really tell if I am consistantly shooting high or low or off to one side. I think the gun shoots straight enough but for some reason I miss the fish. When I try to take my time to line up the shot I either miss or take to long. Would my shooting line be causing a problem? I meant to buy a speed load line kit but the shop was out of them and I was diving the next day so I just bought a cheap jbl shock cord to get me by for the day.

Most guns are very accurate as far as the horiontal plane goes (left/right), not very accurate as far as vertical placement goes. THis varies by your particular gun, power of the bands, and the angle of the bands.

MOst of the not track guns without band risers have muzzle rise as the shaft is leaving the gun (very common on biller/SS type guns), which causes a downward deflection of the shaft... this is probably why you miss more when you aim, as you are beginning to adjust to the natural feel of the gun, and when not aiming, instinctively aim a bit higher.

If you correct for band angle with band risers, making the bands parralel to the shaft, almost all muzzle rise is eliminated and you get a very straight trajectory, and you can aim and strike targets.

My 54 biller, with 22 inch band (always shot with one band, even with lineshaft) shoots dead accurate to about 10-12 feet; anything farther then you must account for shaft drop when aiming, like aiming 4-6 inches high at 12-15 feet. Remember that this drop will varywith angle, so wont be the same when shooting level and when shooting down at 45 degrees.

That shock cord can throw you way off. A line shaft is better, a free shaft is best for accuracy.

Another thing that improves accuracy is adding a few free shafts... this adds mass to the gun, giving you a more stable platform from which to shoot, and you will get less kick to the gun. I notice when I shhot while my extra shaft are out of the gun it bucks a bit harder and is a bit less accurate.

Check to see if your shaft is bent at all also.

Doc,

How much of an effect will the open muzzle cause on a Biller 48 when starting to freeshaft? I would think that as long as you are shooting the 45* angle it souldn't vary that much. But I have started having some miss issues since I have sarted freeshafting.

I cant really tell if I am consistantly shooting high or low or off to one side. I think the gun shoots straight enough but for some reason I miss the fish. When I try to take my time to line up the shot I either miss or take to long. Would my shooting line be causing a problem? I meant to buy a speed load line kit but the shop was out of them and I was diving the next day so I just bought a cheap jbl shock cord to get me by for the day.

lose the shock coil all together, get a free shaft. a shaft that doesnt have extra hardware neccesary for attaching a line. The line and extra hardware create drag. And if the rock point is loose, it can vary the trajectory of the shaft.

On the West coast we use line setups mainly for deep under cuts or wrecks, And for larger fish like jack and cobia.

You should really go to one of Spear One / Kevin Bruington (sp).
He covers enough in one seminar that would several years to figure out on your own.
Im not sure what he was charging these days but its worth it to save you future dive trips.

Bill Hardman at Aqautic Obsession in St. Pete also teaches a Underwater Hunter course.
727-344-dive

Both are sponsors of the SPO http://www.spearfishingspuc.org/SPO_2007/SPO_2007.html



Doc,

How much of an effect will the open muzzle cause on a Biller 48 when starting to freeshaft? I would think that as long as you are shooting the 45* angle it souldn't vary that much. But I have started having some miss issues since I have sarted freeshafting.

The open muzzle wouldnt be the issue, I would towards band age and or correct band length.


Dont forget fish have learned how to use the Matrix to avoid spear shafts:awink:

Chris

So it sounds like if I lose that cheap shooting line and tighten up the tip I will eventually get a feel for the gun and be able to just point and shoot and be accurate. As for freeshafting, my shot placement pretty much blows so I may wait a while to start that.

lose the shock coil all together, get a free shaft. a shaft that doesnt have extra hardware neccesary for attaching a line. The line and extra hardware create drag. And if the rock point is loose, it can vary the trajectory of the shaft.

On the West coast we use line setups mainly for deep under cuts or wrecks, And for larger fish like jack and cobia.

You should really go to one of Spear One / Kevin Bruington (sp).
He covers enough in one seminar that would several years to figure out on your own.
Im not sure what he was charging these days but its worth it to save you future dive trips.

Bill Hardman at Aqautic Obsession in St. Pete also teaches a Underwater Hunter course.
727-344-dive

Both are sponsors of the SPO http://www.spearfishingspuc.org/SPO_2007/SPO_2007.html





The open muzzle wouldnt be the issue, I would towards band age and or correct band length.


Dont forget fish have learned how to use the Matrix to avoid spear shafts:awink:

Chris

:cussing: sneaky little Bast$#%ds!

New bands. Could it be that I got off a little when going to freshaft and swhicch back to lineshaft to spear the wrecks and my "towards" is just offf alittle? Like, is it a different aim for the different ways of spearing, eh?:confused:

So it sounds like if I lose that cheap shooting line and tighten up the tip I will eventually get a feel for the gun and be able to just point and shoot and be accurate. As for freeshafting, my shot placement pretty much blows so I may wait a while to start that.

free shafts fly better that line shafts, but you are on the right track by losing the line.

Good luck, looking forward to you next trip report
Chris

:cussing: sneaky little Bast$#%ds!

New bands. Could it be that I got off a little when going to free shaft and switch back to line shaft to spear the wrecks and my "towards" is just off alittle? Like, is it a different aim for the different ways of spearing, eh?:confused:

Figure of speech and poor grammar, What i was trying to say was, I would suspect the problem you are encountering is a result of either old bands or improper band length.

Yes shooting with a line and with out are two different beasts. The line causes significant drag from both line trailing behind the shaft and the friction of the slide ring. It takes more power to shoot a line shaft than a free shaft. Shooting free shaft will increase your effective range by at least 10 ft.
A free shaft glides through the water, a line shaft pushes through the water dragging a leash.

Does that sound better?

Chris

Ha ha! Yeah, that is starting to clear it up. Just wanted to make sure my was capturing the essence.

I found it easier to harvest smaller fish while spearing wrecks with a line rather than with out (shoot throughs and what not). is that your experience or no?

Doc,

How much of an effect will the open muzzle cause on a Biller 48 when starting to freeshaft? I would think that as long as you are shooting the 45* angle it souldn't vary that much. But I have started having some miss issues since I have sarted freeshafting.


When I first started spearfishing I had the exact same problems as you all on this thread are having, and after experimentation and trial/error, realised that the problem is mostly the equipment. If you shoot any gun, it should go exactly where you aim it at least out to 10 feet. If you line the shaft on an object, squeeze the trigger, and the gun misses, thats a problem.

Most shooters learn to simply adapt to shooting thre gun by feel without looking, and subconsciously know where the shaft will go, but this takes alot longer and is more frustrating than setting up the gun correctly.

Take your gun down, aim down the shaft at something ten feet away, and I can almost guarentee it will shoot a few degrees low.

JBL's shoot totally straight right out of the box, even with no enclosed track or enclosed muzzle. THe secret is in the band risers built into the muzzle, which makes the force of the band propel the shaft straight forward with no whip.

I prefer a wood gun, so simply mount my spare shaft holders in a position where they act as band risers, pulling the bands parellel with the shaft. There is no whip, all forces propel the shaft forward, and the spear goes exactly where aimed, until the shaft slows due to resistance and gravity pulls the shaft downward. In my opinion, based on much experimentation, there is absolutely no need in any way for an enclosed or "commercial" muzzle if there is no shaft whip; enclosed muzzles and tracks largely just mask some of the effects of improper band angle. Before I realized this I tried attaching stabilizer wings to the gun, making low tolerance enclosed muzzles, and a whole bunch of other BS.

So, to finally answer the question, having an open muzzle on a properly set up gun should not interfere with acuracy one bit. It will help, exceptionally, with your freeshafting speed and enjoyment by making it easy and fun to reload shafts from the rear.

(for any new folk who dont know this, always load freeshafts by placingthe tip in the groove about midgun, sliding it through the muzzle, laying the shaft in the track, sliding it into the trigger till it clicks, then cocking. This is how a good freeshafter can reload in 5-10 seconds while swimming)


I have tried all the fancy enclosed track guns and enclosed muzzle guns, and even some euro guns, and I have not found any that I like better or shoot nicer than my old beat up, single band, open muzzle biller with a few spare shafts positioned as band risers.

Insight due to years of experimentation is invaluable indeed.

Thanks to all you guys!:BoomSmilie_anim:

When I first started spearfishing I had the exact same problems as you all on this thread are having, and after experimentation and trial/error, realised that the problem is mostly the equipment. If you shoot any gun, it should go exactly where you aim it at least out to 10 feet. If you line the shaft on an object, squeeze the trigger, and the gun misses, thats a problem.

Most shooters learn to simply adapt to shooting thre gun by feel without looking, and subconsciously know where the shaft will go, but this takes alot longer and is more frustrating than setting up the gun correctly.

Take your gun down, aim down the shaft at something ten feet away, and I can almost guarentee it will shoot a few degrees low.

JBL's shoot totally straight right out of the box, even with no enclosed track or enclosed muzzle. THe secret is in the band risers built into the muzzle, which makes the force of the band propel the shaft straight forward with no whip.

I prefer a wood gun, so simply mount my spare shaft holders in a position where they act as band risers, pulling the bands parellel with the shaft. There is no whip, all forces propel the shaft forward, and the spear goes exactly where aimed, until the shaft slows due to resistance and gravity pulls the shaft downward. In my opinion, based on much experimentation, there is absolutely no need in any way for an enclosed or "commercial" muzzle if there is no shaft whip; enclosed muzzles and tracks largely just mask some of the effects of improper band angle. Before I realized this I tried attaching stabilizer wings to the gun, making low tolerance enclosed muzzles, and a whole bunch of other BS.

So, to finally answer the question, having an open muzzle on a properly set up gun should not interfere with acuracy one bit. It will help, exceptionally, with your freeshafting speed and enjoyment by making it easy and fun to reload shafts from the rear.

(for any new folk who dont know this, always load freeshafts by placingthe tip in the groove about midgun, sliding it through the muzzle, laying the shaft in the track, sliding it into the trigger till it clicks, then cocking. This is how a good freeshafter can reload in 5-10 seconds while swimming)


I have tried all the fancy enclosed track guns and enclosed muzzle guns, and even some euro guns, and I have not found any that I like better or shoot nicer than my old beat up, single band, open muzzle biller with a few spare shafts positioned as band risers.

Nice... Good info. Thanks for the edumucations.:)

One other piece of advice... dont waste spearfishing time, or fish, practicing.

Go to your LDS, buy 5-6 freeshafts, swim down to a nice shallow dive spot, and start learning. Aim at a rock 10 feet away, and shoot all five shafts at it seeing how close they group toether, and how far off from where you aimed. If they are grouped closely but together, its probably the gun. If they are all over the place, it might be you. Try shooting with the band risers and without. Try it with both spare shafts in and without them. Try it with a a hand stabilizing the muzzle and without. Zip tie on an enclose muzzle (made from a split in half large caliber pen tube is a good way to try it... and save your self a few hundred bucks on an enclosed muzzle gun) Then try it loading and shooting as fast as you can. Then go to 15, then go to twenty, then 25. You will probably find you accuracy drops off between 15-20 feet, and at 20-25 a reliable kill shot is nearly impossible. (measure distance as a shaft length being five feet) THen change your vertical shooting angle. Also try with two bands and one. I found that the second band helped very little with ditance, and made me lose alot of acuracy. I have not loaded a second band on my gun in a few years, which constitutes hundreds of spearfishing dives.

You will shave months of the learning curve just doing this a few times, become a very dependable shot, learn to judge distance, and know what fish you can harvest before pulling the trigger, and will probably end up drawing some of the same conclusions I did.

Thanks. Every one who answered my question has helped me a lot. Just one more question though. What would a 54" freeshaft cost me? I looked at a hybrid line shaft at my LDS and they wanted $70 for it.

Thanks. Every one who answered my question has helped me a lot. Just one more question though. What would a 54" freeshaft cost me? I looked at a hybrid line shaft at my LDS and they wanted $70 for it.



Look around dude. Liesurepro.com-ebay and I know there are some others. I just bought my 54" Spearfishing Specialties with a commercial muzzle on here last week. Paid 350.00. Maybe could have gotten it cheeper if I waited, but it was exactly what I wanted. Buying new will not help you kill bigger/more fish.

Post a thread to let everyone know that's what you are looking for. I talked to another guy from Tampa today that said he 15 guns and needed to seel some just to make some room. You never whom else may see your thread and make you an offer. Good luck.:BoomSmilie_anim:

And, I belive you can buy 10 shafts from Ray Odor for 100.00. Someone strighten me out if I'm wrong.

I saw the thread on the gun you got. If I didnt buy a new gun a few weeks ago I would have bought that one. I would rather give my LDS the business instead of an online store but will probably end up buying from Ray Odor. I thought his shafts were around $30 though.

I saw the thread on the gun you got. If I didnt buy a new gun a few weeks ago I would have bought that one. I would rather give my LDS the business instead of an online store but will probably end up buying from Ray Odor. I thought his shafts were around $30 though.

Yeah, I think they are, unless you buy 10. I will check...

Check...must have been a special from a while back when I bought some tips from him. 30.00 each.

Rays shafts are great. Jims dive shop in Madeira Beach (727-393-3483) sell freeshafts for $29. You might get a few dollars off by buying 10 or twenty in bulk, or even a hundred if you get some friends together, but $29 each is a great deal for a few. Tell Theresa Doc sent you, and she'll charge you double.

Buy the way, 60" shafts are standard, you will probably pay more for comercially available 54 inch shafts at a place like jims. Ray makes custom shafts and may sell you them cheaper as it uses less product, and steel cost is a major part of the price. You can easily shoot 60 inch shafts in a 48 gun, but most long term shooters move up to a 54, as it has more range and is more accurate.

If anyone is local and wants to go do some target practice, Im going to do some night dives over the next few weeks. We could leave early, do some target practice before dark, then do a night dive or two. PM if interested.