View Full Version : SILVER, GOLD AND THE IRS


Marcus
06-20-2008, 11:49 AM
By Derry Brownfield
June 15, 2008

NewsWithViews.com

I began a recent presentation before a large group of cattle producers (R-CALFUSA) by showing a paper dollar bill and a silver coin. The words “one dollar” is inscribed on both the coin and the paper, yet the paper dollar will only pay for about one quart of gasoline at today’s prices, while the silver dollar will pay for well over five gallons. I explained to my audience that consumer prices are not high – the paper dollar has lost most of its value. It makes no difference how high the price of gasoline goes, a silver dollar will continue to buy gas for 20 cents a gallon, exactly the price gas was during the Great Depression. Based on 1940 prices, a paper dollar is worth about two pennies.

Today in America, we are being systematically robbed of our property because we have allowed the Federal Reserve to flood our banks with fiat, worthless paper money. There is actually a law against paper money but nobody seems to know about it. The Supreme law of the land is the US Constitution, which stated in Article I Section 10: Individual states are “not allowed to make any things but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts.” The Constitution also states that “Congress has the power to COIN money and regulate the value thereof.” Our Founding Fathers knew how a central bank printing paper money would collapse our economy. Had we followed the US Constitution to the full letter of the law, gasoline would still be 20 cents a gallon. As the dollar continues to lose value we say our currency has lost its purchasing power. It should be more properly referred to as embezzlement by the banking industry.

Robert Kahre owns a family business and instead of using paper money he paid his workers with gold and silver coins minted by the United States government. He paid them based on the “face value” of the coins. If he paid a worker a dollar an hour he paid with a silver dollar, which states on the coin that it is “one dollar” regardless of today’s value. His wages were so low that he didn’t have to file W-2 income tax forms or withhold taxes or pay workman’s comp. This upset the IRS, which charged him and his family with 161 federal tax crimes.

The case which was tried before a Las Vegas jury in a Federal Court, heard testimony for almost four months. Defendants believed they had no legal obligation to withhold, pay income taxes or report anything to the government because the “face value” of the gold and silver coins is so small as to fall beneath the reporting thresholds set by the Internal Revenue Code. The government argued that the payments in gold and silver US coins must be considered at their bullion, full-market value when considering the worth of the wages for purposes of the IRS code. The essence of the argument is that Congress is obligated by law to mint and circulate such coins as demand requires, and must establish the value of coins as they are used as legal tender, but a coin’s market value is a distinct, separate attribute of such coins and is of no legal consequence if the coins are used as legal tender. If a worker is paid with such coins, his taxable income can only be the face value indicated on the coin. “A coin dollar is worth no more for the purposes of tender in payment of an ordinary debt than a note dollar. The law has not made the note a standard of value anymore than coin. It is true that in the market, as an article of merchandise, one is of greater value than the other; but as money, as a medium of exchange, the law knows no difference between them.”

On September 17, the jury returned its verdict refusing to convict all nine defendants of any of the 161 federal tax crimes they had been charged with. One would think, “we the tax payers would want to hear that the IRS was defeated by the use of the true money.” To my knowledge, the results of this trial were never printed or broadcast by any of the major news media. Three days after the trial’s conclusion, the Las Vegas Review Journal ran its first and last story about the outcome and then only because of public pressure from interested parties who attended the trial.

The Department of Justice prosecutors know that justice was done and that if this information was made available to the general public their house of cards would come tumbling down. All federal agencies have a great fear of the truth and only by controlling the news media can they keep the world from caving in on their heads.

Mikerotch
06-20-2008, 05:37 PM
Marcus,
That was a great story and proves beyond even a discussion that the theft perpetrated by our "fed" is the largest heist in history. Thanks for posting truth
with regard to the largest criminal enterprise ever conceived, i.e. the United States government. I'm considering a return to the politics/religion page as I am recharged after my "sabbatical." Thanks for promoting liberty these past few months.

Mikerotch, Hating All Things Government With A Renewed Passion

Prodigal Son
06-20-2008, 05:42 PM
I'm considering a return to the politics/religion page as I am recharged after my "sabbatical."...

Mikerotch, were you on the campaign trail with McCain?;)

snowstopsspears
06-20-2008, 09:28 PM
Robert Kahre owns a family business and instead of using paper money he paid his workers with gold and silver coins minted by the United States government.

Marcus,

Are there any more details available on the specifics of this case? I'd love to know the nature, scale, and scope of his "family business." I've spent the last five minutes trying to wrap my brain around the logistics of walking around with a satchel of silver coins. It's interesting, to be sure.


Andrew

Marcus
06-20-2008, 09:38 PM
Marcus,

Are there any more details available on the specifics of this case? I'd love to know the nature, scale, and scope of his "family business." I've spent the last five minutes trying to wrap my brain around the logistics of walking around with a satchel of silver coins. It's interesting, to be sure.


Andrew


Andrew,

I haven't any more specifics than can be found by googling it. BTW, what is your profession...if not being too prying. I enjoy your knowledgeable posts.

Mikerotch
06-23-2008, 09:41 AM
Mikerotch, were you on the campaign trail with McCain?

Not Hardly.

Mikerotch, Not Hardly

kitefisherman
06-23-2008, 10:09 AM
That's an interesting case. However, in the end the IRS probably didn't lose any income taxes - just some payroll taxes on the reduction in salaries. The employees were only income taxed on the face amount of the coins - the flip side of which the employer only got an income tax deduction for the face amount of the coins that were used to pay the employees. So the employer's taxable income would be higher by the amount of the untaxed difference in salaries. If the employer is in a higher income tax bracket than its employees, then the IRS will collect even more combined income taxes from the employer and employees than it would have otherwise.

Relapse
06-23-2008, 10:38 AM
That's an interesting case. However, in the end the IRS probably didn't lose any income taxes - just some payroll taxes on the reduction in salaries. The employees were only income taxed on the face amount of the coins - the flip side of which the employer only got an income tax deduction for the face amount of the coins that were used to pay the employees. So the employer's taxable income would be higher by the amount of the untaxed difference in salaries. If the employer is in a higher income tax bracket than its employees, then the IRS will collect even more combined income taxes from the employer and employees than it would have otherwise.

Only if he shows a profit:whistle:

kitefisherman
06-23-2008, 11:04 AM
If they aren't showing a profit after being able to deduct only about 5% of the true cost of their payroll, then they've got bigger problems than the IRS!

Relapse
06-23-2008, 12:20 PM
My line of thinking was that if someone is creative enough to come up with a strategy like that, they are probably using that creativity in other way as well.:circle:

John, are you a tax attorney?

kitefisherman
06-23-2008, 12:44 PM
Yes I am.

My point was that if you reduce the employee's compensation to the face value of the coins that you also reduce the employer's deduction. As a practical matter, if you as an employee were paid in silver dollars, you would probably have to sell them to get cash to pay your mortgage, for groceries, gas, etc. When you sold them, you would have to recognize the gain on the sale (sales price over face value) as taxable income, so you would be in the same place taxable income wise - except for the payroll tax. Also because the employees could not afford to hold the coins for over a year, the gain would be short term taxable at ordinary income rates. In that case the wages would be fully taxed to the employee, and yet the employer's deduction would still be limited to the face amount of the coins.

mcjaret
06-23-2008, 12:53 PM
Where did he get all these coins? Unless he had a pile sitting around all these years that he suddenly decided to liquidate, he'd have to buy the coins at FMV, then give them away for face value. I guess he paid his people less, but why? You can't deduct the cost of the coins as that would be fraud.

The only thing he might be saving is the social security, unemployment, and medicare contributions, but that wouldn't make up for the 5 to 1 disparity in cost of payroll compared to the deduction. The employees would have to sell the coins to recognize the "true value" and arguably would then be subject to capital gains tax. The whole scheme makes no sense especially when you consider the time wasted by the owner and the employees in buying and selling the coins.

Relapse
06-23-2008, 01:04 PM
Yes I am.

My point was that if you reduce the employee's compensation to the face value of the coins that you also reduce the employer's deduction. As a practical matter, if you as an employee were paid in silver dollars, you would probably have to sell them to get cash to pay your mortgage, for groceries, gas, etc. When you sold them, you would have to recognize the gain on the sale (sales price over face value) as taxable income, so you would be in the same place taxable income wise - except for the payroll tax. Also because the employees could not afford to hold the coins for over a year, the gain would be short term taxable at ordinary income rates. In that case the wages would be fully taxed to the employee, and yet the employer's deduction would still be limited to the face amount of the coins.
I see your point. Thanks for the response.

Chiung
06-23-2008, 05:40 PM
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=8&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D2VJ 3son-ha8&ei=gQdgSKL9D4iW8wSV0bHBDg&usg=AFQjCNEsiskscdF7k3oY2bgeGNbRygCKTg&sig2=5RNNsB5OcLXt0FgYxaKr4A

Marcus,

Are there any more details available on the specifics of this case? I'd love to know the nature, scale, and scope of his "family business." I've spent the last five minutes trying to wrap my brain around the logistics of walking around with a satchel of silver coins. It's interesting, to be sure.


Andrew

Marcus
06-23-2008, 06:07 PM
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=8&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D2VJ 3son-ha8&ei=gQdgSKL9D4iW8wSV0bHBDg&usg=AFQjCNEsiskscdF7k3oY2bgeGNbRygCKTg&sig2=5RNNsB5OcLXt0FgYxaKr4A


Wow...armed men violently taking your hard earned money so that they may keep you safe from?????
This is the government that is supposed to be serving us? Looks like organized crime to me.

Marcus
06-24-2008, 12:00 PM
Testimony from former IRS agent

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1UT2Ms5E2k&feature=related

Aaron Proffitt
06-24-2008, 12:06 PM
Wow...armed men violently taking your hard earned money so that they may keep you safe from?????
This is the government that is supposed to be serving us? Looks like organized crime to me.

I hear the CIA officers won't even mess with them at Quantico. Say they would rather be waterboarded than spend half an hour with a pistol packing CPA.

On a sidenote, anytime I have a young person who is considering a career in fed. law enforcement ask me what college courses they should focus on; I always tell them accounting and computer science. Regardless of the agency.

Marcus
06-24-2008, 12:22 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVzkceT521A&feature=related