Mitt Romney has five sons of military-eligible age.

Mitt Romney is supporting the war in Iraq.

None of Mitt Romney's sons are in or have been in the military.

All of his sons are working for his campaign.

When asked about this, Romney said


“It’s remarkable how we can show our support for our nation, and one of the ways my sons are showing support for our nation is helping to get me elected, because they think I’d be a great president. My son, Josh, bought the family Winnebago and has visited 99 counties, most of them with his three kids and his wife. And I respect that and respect all of those in the way they serve this great country.”

God, how brave they are. I hope no one gets a paper cut.

Thanks for taking him off my list! :toast:

:wtf: What a F*cking A*s :cussing:! Thank god or who ever for the great leadership this country has :slap:.

Bill,

Are there any Presidential candidates that have military aged kids, that have kids in the military?

I know Chlesea Clinton is, and she isn't in the military and when it was fashionable, Hillary supported the war in Iraq.

bgbill..... gotta remember most of those Cali folks are left wing commie bastards. Fruitcakes........................................ ....

bgbill..... gotta remember most of those Cali folks are left wing commie bastards. Fruitcakes........................................ ....

That may be true;) but I know Bill McIntyre was a Pilot in Viet Nam, and his son was a Pilot in the Military as well, so at least they walked the walk.

I respect that. I did my time as well and retired. I did two tours of Iraq as well.

Just curious if he is supposed to force his kids to join the military? Not sure how he would do that. Everyone is not cut-out for military service although it is admirable for them to support those who are serving. I also don't see what is wrong with advocating the use of our military. In most professions it is an honor that someone believes so strongly in your ability that they are willing to ask you to take the lead. Of course if you believe they are being "sent off to die" like the media and some politicians want you to think then I can see how you reach this conclusion.

Although there are some politicians with military service, the two careers seem to be growing further and further apart. I don't think we want most of our politician types doing the heavy lifting. Leave that for the real men & women. The politicians are what they are but at a minimum they should support the people who keep us free without having to feel guilty about it.

I'm still open on candidates. Romney seems to have a strong management track record but not sure about everything else.

My son, Josh, bought the family Winnebago and has visited 99 counties, most of them with his three kids and his wife.

His son is supporting the nation by going on vacation with his family?

I'm sure almost all kids go on vacation with their families. Not all of them are in the military. I beleive he has a job and pays his taxes. That more than I could say about a lot of people. None of Edwards,Clintons or Bidens have their kids in the military.

further more..I'm retired Army and support what were doing over there. I don't agree with some of the choices we have made over there. You would almost have to be crazy to send your kid over there with the way our current adminastration is handling it. I'm sure glad it's not Kerry directing it because we would be more the the French.

When voting for the next president like the last ... We will be voting for the less of the two evils.

His son is supporting the nation by going on vacation with his family?

You can vacation in Iowa?

Mitt Romney has five sons of military-eligible age.

Mitt Romney is supporting the war in Iraq.

None of Mitt Romney's sons are in or have been in the military.

All of his sons are working for his campaign.

When asked about this, Romney said



God, how brave they are. I hope no one gets a paper cut.

Bill, Do you feel that if you want to be president you better bring your boys up to be soldiers? What is your point?

What do you know about them other than that they did not join the military? For all you know they may be some of americas best men/families. Did you think that they do not have a life of their own, and that it was not a sacrifice and a service to go on the campaign trail to 99 counties in Iowa?

Also, just curious bill, who will you be supporting as our next president?

You can vacation in Iowa?

Absolutely. Great hunting in Iowa.

I've decided to donate my life in service to our great nation. I will be touring several artificial reefs and live bottom areas throughout the Gulf of Mexico, checking for terrorists along the way. I've determined, through information squeezed via the "Patriot Act", that many of the terrorists are disguised as Gag groupers and some , of a more liberal bend, are imitating Red Snappers. I will be slinging 5/16" steel, so somebody pay a congressman so Ray Odor can get into the military/industrial complex feeding trough and I can have the desired weapons. While your at it, pay to get Kevin in line because I will need several commercial SS Sea Hornets to pass out to the locals I will be training to keep this great nation "free." I will need donations, so in order to maximize them, please get congress to make all donations "tax deductible." Let me just say, in advance, thank you for all your support and for allowing me to serve this great nation in this way because we all know it's not "how you serve" but "that you serve."

Mikerotch, Public Servant

http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

I'll try to answer several questions in one post.

bgbill..... gotta remember most of those Cali folks are left wing commie bastards. Fruitcakes........................................ ....

California has by far the largest population of retired military. Its strange that all of us would be comfortable living among left wing commie bastards.

Just curious if he is supposed to force his kids to join the military? Not sure how he would do that.

No, he can't force them and shouldn't force them. It just seems strange that if he believes so much in the cause, that not one out of 5 male kids serves. And of course its the height of egotism for their father to say that its so important that he become President that working for his campaign constitutes service to our country.

Of course if you believe they are being "sent off to die" like the media and some politicians want you to think then I can see how you reach this conclusion.

I do believe that they are just being sent off to die. And the the war in which they are dying is not only a waste of their lives, but is actually making us less safe. They are dying in a country that had nothing to do with 9/11, they are being wasted when they could have been chasing the real terrorists who did attack us, they are making the Middle East unstable with consequences we can only dimly foresee, and the war they are fighting is turning the world against us. The world and the US are far less safe because of this war. Terrorism is strengthened rather than weakened. Our military is being weakened so that we don't have the power to face real threats.

Bush 41 was smart enough to forsee what would happen if he pushed on to Bagdad, but it seems that Bush 43 is trying to prove he is tougher than his daddy. So our troops have to die to work out the problems of a dysfunctional family relationship.

The troops are very brave and doing a fantastic job in horrible circumstances. But their deaths are still in vain.

I'm sure glad it's not Kerry directing it because we would be more the the French.

First, Kerry probably wouldn't be directing it even if he had been elected. He is smart enough to have known better than to attack the wrong country.

Second, Kerry actually served in the military. Sure, the Swift Boaters managed to tear him apart to sully his record, but they guy running it now used his daddy's influence to hide in Texas in the Air Guard so he didn't have to join Kerry and me in Vietnam. Kerry had the guts to serve and then come home and speak against the war. Bush didn't serve, but said the war was a good idea.

If Kerry had made the mistake of invading Iraq, at least he might have followed the advice of his generals in how to go about it rather than listening to Cheney and Rumfeld telling him that it would be a cakewalk and pay for itself with sales of oil.

Also, just curious bill, who will you be supporting as our next president?

It won't be Romney. I know they are all hypocrites to some extent, but his flip-flop is a bit much. He was pro-choice and pro- gay marriage as governor. But to get the party's nomination, he switched sides to please the right-wing base.

By way of contrast, McCain has the guts to stick to his positions on the war and on immigration, even when he knows that those positions are killing his chances.

It won't be Romney. I know they are all hypocrites to some extent, but his flip-flop is a bit much. He was pro-choice and pro- gay marriage as governor. But to get the party's nomination, he switched sides to please the right-wing base.

By way of contrast, McCain has the guts to stick to his positions on the war and on immigration, even when he knows that those positions are killing his chances.

So you will be supporting Mccain? I can live with that.:D

The truth is put any of the front runners up on the chopping block and you can say somthing bad about them. Pro choice and Pro-Gay Marriage? Are you sure about that? I knew he had stood for the womans right to choose, but when it came down to his first decision that affected life and death, he sided with life and changed his position since then. As far as Pro-Gay Marriage, I had not heard that before. Do you have any sources for this?

Bill, I don't know about you but I don't think any democrats can win the election agaist Romney, Mccain or Rudy. I think your best chance of having a democratic President is to help campaign for Rudy and Edwards, only in that combination would you have a chance.

Romney didnt do anything of note while he was governor here in MA. When he ran against Kennedy for the senate seat in the 90's he took pro-choice and pro-gay rights positions. Now that he is running a natioanl campaign he is trying to distance himself from those positions. I believe that the GOP has a term for that. Flip-Flop.

Maybe I should have said "pro gay rights" rather than "pro gay marriage." I just did a Google search on Romney flip flop, and here is the first hit.

http://www.washblade.com/2006/12-22/view/columns/kirchick.cfm

It used to be that to even be considered for Senate, you had to have served in the military. The senate is nothing but a big-money popularity contest now so I'm not surprised that they or their children aren't in it.

It is odd that none of Romney's five kids served. And I'm hoping his answer was taken out of context.

In answer to the question about candidates with kids in the service, John McCain has a son serving as an officer in the Navy, a son who's an enlisted man in the Marines and I believe, another son who's in the Naval Academy.

He may have blown his chances, but he's no hypocrite.

...But their deaths are still in vain.

Bill, I've patiently read a lot of your opinions and rants in an open-minded way as possible. However, I'll always vehemently disagree with you on this point. Try to keep your opinion on their sacrifice separate and distinct from your zealous acrimony toward George W. Bush. This statement really gets under my skin, and I believe the latter gives rise to this statement. No one denies that the Vietnam War was ill-advised and poorly managed. However, I do not believe that the lost lives of our soldiers, or your service there for that matter, were purely "in vain". Great good can still arise from bad circumstances or decisions. Iraq is no different. Despite what the media portrays, our soldiers have made important in-roads with the Iraqi people. Many of them are seeing a stark contrast between the the compassionate committment of many of our soldiers and the ugly brutality of Al Quaida and other Islamic militants. Over time, I believe some good will come out of that. I want our soldiers out of Iraq just as bad as you or anyone else. But I don't want to see their loyalty and sacrifices portrayed as "in vain".

Howard,

Its as painful to me as it is to you to contemplate the fact that their lives have been given in vain. No one wants to think that the life of a family member, friend, or countryman was given in vain, but wishing otherwise doesn't change the truth. And their loyalty and sacrifices make it all the sadder, but still don't change anything.

That is my opinion. You are welcome to your own.

Here is an article that says 96 family members are helping him in Iowa (aka serving their country).

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/10/us...family.html?hp

You've got to hand it to the Mormons- they really do the family thing.

And in one more example of the great things we brought to the Iraqi people, here is what we have done for the educated secular middle class. They are not grateful.

August 10, 2007
Well-Off Fleeing Iraq Find Poverty and Pain in Jordan

By SABRINA TAVERNISE
AMMAN, Jordan, Aug. 9 — After her husband’s killing, Amira sold a generation of her family’s belongings, packed up her children and left behind their large house in Baghdad, with its gardener and maid.

Now, a year later, she is making meat fritters for money in this sand-colored capital, unable to afford glasses for her son, and in the quiet moments, choking on the bitterness of loss.

The war has scattered hundreds of thousands of Iraqis throughout the Middle East, but those who came here tended to be the most affluent. Most lacked residency status and were not allowed to work, but as former bank managers, social club directors and business owners, they thought their money would last.

It has not. Rents are high, schools cost money, and under-the-table jobs pay little. A survey of 100 Iraqi families found that 64 were surviving by selling their assets.

Now, as a new school year begins, many Iraqis here say they can no longer afford some of life’s basic requirements — education for their children and hospital visits for their families. Teeth are pulled instead of filled. Shampoo is no longer on the grocery list.

“My savings are finished,” said Amira, who is 50. “My kids won’t be in school this year.”

It is a painful new reality for an important part of Iraq’s population, the educated, secular center. They refused to take sides as the violence got worse. And their suffering augurs something larger for Iraq. The poorer they grow and the longer they stay away, the more crippled Iraq becomes. “The binding section of the population does not exist anymore,” said Ayad Allawi, a former prime minister, who now spends most of his time in Jordan. “The middle class has left Iraq.”

Iraqis streamed into Jordan and Syria in 2005 and 2006, with the professional class picking Jordan. The signs on the second floor of Al Essra Hospital, a private hospital in central Amman, display only Iraqi doctors’ names. The Jordanians have been relatively lenient, registering doctors in their medical unions and allowing the vast majority to live in their country without residency permits.

But by early this year Iraqis were weighing so heavily on this small country that the Jordanian authorities sharply reduced the numbers they accepted. (Rejections became so common that Iraqi Airways now offers a 30 percent discount to returning passengers who have been turned away.)

Many thought Jordan would be a stop on the way to Australia or Sweden, or a brief vacation from Baghdad’s inferno. But as the months wore on, it became clear that most countries were closed to Iraqis, the war was only getting worse, and families were left stranded, burning through their savings. The Australian authorities twice rejected Hassan Jabr, a Spanish teacher who left his elegant home and garden in Baghdad after his 12-year-old son was kidnapped and killed last year. Now, with his savings gone, badly dented before he left by a $10,000 ransom that he paid to try to get his son back, he is living off his family’s food ration cards that his mother sells in Baghdad.

“We saw reality in Amman and we were shocked,” he said, sitting in his spare one-room apartment in eastern Amman. “We planned for two months.”

Iraqis here have never been formally counted. A survey by a Norwegian group, Fafo, which has not been made public, is expected to report there are less than half of the 750,000 commonly estimated to be in Jordan.

But that is still 10 percent of the population of two million in Amman, where most of the Iraqis live, and aid agencies have stepped up activities.

This month the Jordanian government, under pressure from the United States, agreed to let Iraqi children without residency attend public schools, a right not extended to any other foreigners.

But the schools are crowded and the government has not yet prepared for the change, arguing that it should receive aid to accommodate it. United Nations agencies are asking for extra money to expand, at first by adding new shifts to existing schools.

Save the Children, a humanitarian group, says it has referred 4,000 Iraqis to schools recently, but the referrals do not guarantee acceptance. Amira went to the public school in her neighborhood, but was told that there was no room for her children. Private school cost her $5,000 last year, a third of her savings.

As the middle class becomes poor, new patterns form. Zeinab Majid’s okra stew no longer has meat. She buys her vegetables just before sunset, when the prices are the lowest. A stranger offered her the use of a washing machine, a gesture that nearly brought her to tears.

She came to Amman last September after her husband, a painter, had received two threats, and the studio he used had been bombed. They sold everything. Now her husband, a quiet man in small round glasses, spends his days jabbing paint onto small canvases while their boys, ages 7 and 4, watch cartoons on an old TV. “There are days when I’m penniless completely,” she said, serving juice to visitors. A Catholic relief organization, Caritas, helped pay for first grade for her older son last year.

The pain of the war closes people, and recent arrivals tend to live isolated lives, dividing the community into small, sad pockets. Amira moves mechanically through her days like a stunned survivor of a shipwreck. Tears come easily when she remembers the belongings she sold, the photo albums she did not take. Her husband, a Sunni, died five days after men in police uniforms took him from his shop last year. His face was bruised and his body broken. It was 22 years to the day since they first met.

“They were after the happiness,” she said, her face wet with tears. “They wanted to kill the happiness.”

The United States promised to increase the number of Iraqi refugees it takes, and the United Nations has referred 9,100 Iraqis to it this year. But so far fewer than 200 have arrived, according to the State Department. Several hundred more are expected to arrive in the coming weeks.

Running out of money is frightening, and some families choose to move to Syria, where things are cheaper, or, in some cases, back to Baghdad and the war.

Aseel Qaradaghi, a 25-year-old software engineer, was pregnant when she brought her small daughter here last summer after receiving threats from Islamic extremists. Her husband, a translator for a South African security firm, stayed in Baghdad to earn money. But when he did not call on her birthday, she knew something was wrong, and only after pressing his friends on a crackling phone line did she learn that he had been kidnapped.

Now, eight months later, she is earning a small wage at a nursery, but without his salary it is not enough, and she has applied for refugee status. If she is rejected, she will have to return to Baghdad. She does not know her husband’s fate, but worries that it will be the same as her brother’s, killed for working as a translator for the American military.

“I cannot allow myself to think about him,” she said, bouncing her baby boy on her lap. “The moment I start to allow feelings, my life will stop. I’m afraid of the moment that I collapse.”

Last week, Amira had a guest. Nada, a mother of three, whose husband worked as a deputy director of a prestigious social club in Baghdad, was preparing to move to Syria. The thousands of dollars from the sale of several cars and a house are almost gone.

“My daughter was second in her class,” Amira said, her words coming hard and fast. “I traveled all over the world. I want to tell the Americans what has happened to us.”

[QUOTE=Bill McIntyre;8877]I'll try to answer several questions in one post.



California has by far the largest population of retired military. Its strange that all of us would be comfortable living among left wing commie bastards.


And the largest population of gays,illigals,freaks,fruitcakes and the home of Barry Bonds the biggest loser of all.

[QUOTE=Bill McIntyre;8877]I'll try to answer several questions in one post.



California has by far the largest population of retired military. Its strange that all of us would be comfortable living among left wing commie bastards.


And the largest population of gays,illigals,freaks,fruitcakes and the home of Barry Bonds the biggest loser of all.

You remind me of another thread that talked about the problems on Spearboard. I said that many members from the Southeastern US had a deep antipathy for California and anyone who lived in California, and some people said I was wrong, and that any comments to that effect were made in jest and not serious.

You have gone to great lengths to prove my case. If you can't intelligently discuss issues, you blame me for Barry Bonds. I hope you are actually smarter than that, but I can't tell. Do you actually want me to start naming people who live in Florida and holding you responsible for their conduct?

If you have something to say on an issue, say it. Don't try to fall back on saying that anything said by someone from CA is the word of a gay freak fruitcake who gave Barry Bonds his steroids.

And by the way, I started a thread about Romney. You are the one who turned it into an argument on the wisdom of the war.

Ahhh, politics and religion-gotta love it. Gentlemen, we are a community of spearfishermen, spearfishermen with a core purpose to protect, promote, and grow the sport. Until we change the name to Politics and Religion Planet, please don't forget that. I'm not sure where and when the CA bashing began, but it should end now. The CA crowd is welcome in this forum in every way. There have been comments made at the expense of our CA members in this thread. Clearly the comments made were references to old jokes, but enough already. If you have a sober comment to make regarding the thread subject, please join in. Otherwise, please get back to the important things in life and on this board. This thread is far from important to the mission of this site or our sport, and certainly not worth fighting and making enemies.

Iraq is no different. Despite what the media portrays, our soldiers have made important in-roads with the Iraqi people. Many of them are seeing a stark contrast between the the compassionate committment of many of our soldiers and the ugly brutality of Al Quaida and other Islamic militants. Over time, I believe some good will come out of that.Prodigal son, I will not comment on whether the war should or should not be nor on this Romney fellow because the decisions that the US management makes are none of my business, but I have to say something about your statement above. To sum it up it is BS. You have not lived among middle easterners and you do not have a concept of their mentality. They as a nation hate the west and this runs very very deep in their culture, like a conditioned reflex. Yes they are human and love their parents and their children but they are very different in other respects. The ones you may meet living in the US are the smart ones that don't want to deal with it over there and come to the US. I feel many many Americans have this misguided idea similar to what you've stated, I lived among them so I know.

...I have to say something about your statement above. To sum it up it is BS. You have not lived among middle easterners and you do not have a concept of their mentality. They as a nation hate the west and this runs very very deep in their culture, like a conditioned reflex. Yes they are human and love their parents and their children but they are very different in other respects. The ones you may meet living in the US are the smart ones that don't want to deal with it over there and come to the US. I feel many many Americans have this misguided idea similar to what you've stated, I lived among them so I know.
Superficially, your statement appears to bear some truth when you see what many of these people are doing to our troops and themselves. Their chance for freedom and liberty is being taken from them and squandered. But I certainly don't believe that people from the Middle East living in the US are any "smarter" than their brethren at home. I believe the logic in your statement is reversed. Yes, they are different from us, both from religious and cultural perspectives. Yet, as you stated, they are humans who, as such, love their children and their lives. I hope we can connect to that commonality on some level. It may take a very long time, or it may never happen at all. However, we cannot give up. No matter what some of them do, we cannot fall into the temptation of hating them all because of their differences from us. That's what these Islamic terrorists want. It's the primary fuel for their jihad.

And in one more example of the great things we brought to the Iraqi people, here is what we have done for the educated secular middle class. They are not grateful.

Bill, thanks for posting that article. My heart grieves for these people. My parents and grandparents went through similar hardships during and after the Korean War. However, unless you clipped a segment of the article out, I can't find a single statement made by those Iraqi people to indicate that they were "not grateful". It is clear from the article that they're not happy with their current circumstances, but that's not the same as saying they're ungrateful. Interestingly, the author doesn't ask them the principle question: Despite their current hardship, do they (not you or I) think they will be worse off in the long run with Saddam gone? The author seems to want us to believe they are worse off, but none of these disparate soundbites he has arranged supports that presumption. My maternal and paternal grandparents lost everything during the Korean War, and I mean everything (including a large number of family members). They endured incredible hardships as a result of being displaced from their homes and penniless. However, they survived and as long as I knew them, I never heard them once complain about or be ungrateful to their American "occupiers". Did atrocities and injustices occur during that war? Yes, and some of them worse than what's been published about Iraq. Was that war effort and the lives lost in vain? By your argument, it was. Yikes, we didn't "win" anything. It ended up in an armstice. But by my argument, on a certain level, those sacrifices were not in vain. They opened up an opportunity for my parents (and many others) to be exposed to another potential life and culture outside of their home country, immigrate to America, contribute to this society, meet and marry. Hell, it even gave rise to me. My many patients sure are glad that I'm around (uh, at least some of them). I hope this holds true for people I took care of during my Air Force career and my career as a civilian. However, none of that would've been possible if our soldiers did not fight in a seemingly senseless war that appeared to amount to nothing. I certainly am not trying to justify senseless wars. I just don't believe our soldiers die in vain. However, I understand that you have a right to your opinion Bill, and I respect that right. Lord knows, on a certain level, you've earned it more than most of us. I hope to see you at the Fathomier's Scramble Meet next Saturday. Even if you don't compete, it should be a good time at the weigh-in.

Ugh, I told myself never to post in the Polticis & Religion section again, and look what I've gone and done.

Bill My purpose or intent was never to bash you or the Califirnia people. I was just respoding to your post on Romey. It does appear that most CA folks don't like the right side and seem to take pop shots at them quit a bit. The same issues you brought up about him (Romey) I also see in the canidates on the left.
I sorry if I affended you in anyway.................Oh and Barry Bonds is a piece of crap no matter where you come from. He did it all on his own.

However, unless you clipped a segment of the article out, I can't find a single statement made by those Iraqi people to indicate that they were "not grateful".

How about the last line?

“My daughter was second in her class,” Amira said, her words coming hard and fast. “I traveled all over the world. I want to tell the Americans what has happened to us.”

I guess its just a matter of interpretation, but I'm guessing that she doesn't want to tell the Americans how grateful she is that her circumstances have been changed so drastically.

Interestingly, the author doesn't ask them the principle question: Despite their current hardship, do they (not you or I) think they will be worse off in the long run with Saddam gone? The author seems to want us to believe they are worse off, but none of these disparate soundbites he has arranged supports that presumption.

No he didn't. I guess it shows my bias, but I hardly think it was necessary. People who were prosperous, had good jobs, could live in mixed neighborhoods, could shop without fear of being blown up, had the best education system in the Middle East for their kids, could travel, etc. are likely to think they are worse off living in poverty as refugees. Or at least I would.

Saddam was a very evil dictator, but at least most people could go through the motions of living a normal life. Now almost no one can.

Regarding your comparison to the Korean War- I think that one was justified. Horrible atrocities occur in every war, and that's why we better think twice before we get into a war, but at least there was good reason to fight that one. There was no good reason to fight in Vietnam, and there is no good reason to fight in Iraq, and Iraq is worse because it diverts our attention and power from other greater threats.

When you go on to your family story and how the Korean War ended up causing you to be here treating patients, there is no way I can argue with that but I don't think its relevant.

If some refugee from Iraq ends up coming to America or some other country, and his grandson ends up curing cancer and heart disease with one cheap treatment, will that offset all the death and misery that this war has heaped on both Americans and Iraqis, possible disruption of the world oil supply, the strengthening of Iran's position so that it develops a nuclear weapon, etc., etc., etc?

And then what if Islamic terrorism, strengthened and hardened by our invasion, enables Iran to sell a weapon to terrorists who sneak it into LA in a cargo container? And they can sneak it in because after all the money spent invading Iraq, we didn't have enough left to tighten port security as recommended by every security expert. And then that weapon kills all the people that the grandson of the Iraqi refugee saved from cancer and heart disease.

Sorry if that ramble sounds like a bit of a stretch, but it was my way of trying to make the point that its also a bit of a stretch to say that the war may be good because of some benefit to some family or individual. The focus needs to be on things more easily measurable, like how many Americans have died, how many Iraqis have died, how likely is it that Iraq can ever be a unified nation now that we have let it tear apart, what will be the effect on its Middle East neighbors, and what is the effect on our country's moral authority in the world.

Prodigal son, I will not comment on whether the war should or should not be nor on this Romney fellow because the decisions that the US management makes are none of my business, but I have to say something about your statement above. To sum it up it is BS. You have not lived among middle easterners and you do not have a concept of their mentality. They as a nation hate the west and this runs very very deep in their culture, like a conditioned reflex. Yes they are human and love their parents and their children but they are very different in other respects. The ones you may meet living in the US are the smart ones that don't want to deal with it over there and come to the US. I feel many many Americans have this misguided idea similar to what you've stated, I lived among them so I know.

I have lived amongst them also and have a completey different opinion on Arabs and Muslims than you do. I was never shown any hostility or hatred and I never once tried to hide the fact I was an American. This was in Jordan, the West Bank, Gaza, Eygpt and Lebanon. Maybe they just didnt like you.:D

I have lived amongst them also and have a completey different opinion on Arabs and Muslims than you do.Now I understand it's "completely different" but what exactly is it?Maybe they just didnt like you.:DYou could have left that one out :D So how were you living in all those different countries exactly, in the Hilton?

A foreigner visiting in one of the not so prosperous countries attracts to himself a certain kind of people in the country he's visiting. These are people who are interested in being associated with foreigners and do not represent the majority of the population. Those are people who make their living off of catering to foreigners like hotels and restaurants, businesses looking to or already working with a foreign firm, and black marketeers e.g. prostitutes. These people accepts the risks of dealing with foreigners in exchange for the benefits it brings. These people are not well liked by the rest of the population. That is why the moment there is an upheaval in the country as far as government they are the first to be evacuated or executed. Could it be these are the people you are getting your opinions from? Or do you put on a keffiyeh and wander the side streets selling tomatoes from a cart in your spare time? Out of all the countries you mentioned Lebanon is the most foreigner friendly but even so not Americans!

I don't hate Arabs on an individual basis, I just recognize and accept that as nations they are different and need to be dealt with accordingly. I don't want to argue about this so I'm out of the thread.

How about the last line?
...will that offset all the death and misery that this war has heaped on both Americans and Iraqis...
...trying to make the point that its also a bit of a stretch to say that the war may be good because of some benefit to some family or individual....

Yes Bill, I did interpret the last line of your article to mean something different. It appears to me that the Iraqi woman wants Americans to hear of her plight as an appeal for help, rather than a statement of ingratitude.

Regarding your other points, it was not my intent to justify these wars. I was trying to point out that whatever sacrifices were made, they weren't made wholly in vain. Would I rather that the Korean War or the current Iraq War never happened? Yes, even if the former means that life would've been very different for me and a lot of other people. However, what's done is done, and despite the bad, some good came out of it. I guess I trying to see some hope in a very bad situation.